Gear-pump pressure nozzle burner

Discussion in 'Burners and their construction' started by PatJ, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Looking good!
     
  2. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    Thanks.
    I am confident that this burner will work since it is used extensively in commercial heating units.
    There are some examples on the other forum of people using them to melt metal, and it seems like there were several in use, and it was quite popular for a while.
    I am not sure if there are examples of combo units posted here.

    This will not be a combo unit.
    I want the pump and motor well away from the furnace.

    I am stuck under a tsunami of work right now, so there is no prospect of making any progress on this for a while.
    This is going to become my main burner though as soon as I get it completed.
    No more air compressor for me.

    .
     
  3. OMM

    OMM Silver

    Pat, this is what I’m really looking forward to!

    you have ultimately got rid of compressed air and maintain an open vessel to keep adding fuel...

    I am curious to know how much does your pump station weigh?
     
  4. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Hey Pat.... The only issue I ever had running the compressor on my burner was once it failed to kick back on. I was running the furnace for about 15minutes and noticed I hadn't heard the compressor. Seems some lame brain forgot to flip the circuit breaker back on... Wonder who that could be?:oops:

    I would like the freedom from the hose across the ground. I have bad dreams about dropping a hot tool on that hose and the carnage it would cause!:eek:

    I'm with OMM... I do like being able to add fuel without shutting down. I can do that now.
     
  5. OMM

    OMM Silver

    Jason, I love your set up, but I’d like to refine it. I don’t know if it is possible. But I will give it a try. I have an air compressor that weighs maybe 500 pounds and 5 hp with 17 CFM with a max of 155 psi.

    I am super interested in simplifying this is....pressurizing the fuel with out a pressurized vessel. I consider this very interesting.
     
  6. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    I oversized the motor (I used a 1/3 hp motor), and so it is a bit heavier than necessary.
    I would guess my pump/motor combination will weigh 40 lbs max., perhaps 30 lbs.
    The gear pump weighs almost nothing; perhaps 5 lbs.

    My pressure switch has stuck on my air compressor twice.
    I heard this bad noise that sounded like the belts slipping and the compressor locking up, and I ran into the shop and saw the air gauge way above the setpoint, perhaps up to 175 psi.
    The safety valves were not going off, so I must have been just below their setting.

    I have a good air compressor, but am tired of watching it and making sure it works correctly.
    And I don't want to have to buy another one some day.
    The gear pump and motor are cheap compared to the price of a good air compressor.
    I forget the exact cost of these items, but you can find them on ebay.
    The gear pump was maybe $100.00.
    The motor was about $100.00 if I remember correctly, and a smaller one (smaller than 1/3 hp) would work and would be cheaper.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  7. OMM

    OMM Silver

    I am applauding you for trying something new/Different. If I went with the motor pump, I would probably go with DC three phase. You are where you are. I look forward to your testing.
     
  8. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    But its really old-school stuff.
    These things have been around since I got on the forum back in 2011 or so, and were on the forum long before I came along.

    The only thing I have done is separate the pump and motor from the burner tube and nozzle, and I would guess I am not the first to do this either, but I can't point out an example at the moment.

    .
     
  9. OMM

    OMM Silver

    My old household furnace ran a very similar tip (red fuel). I do believe you’re running waste oil???
     
  10. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    No, I run diesel, but at some point I will have a two tank setup, and will start on diesel and then switch to waste oil (via a 3-way fuel valve).

    I found several people on the old forum who used the home heating units with a foundry.
    I cannot find anyone who made up an arrangement with a remote pump and motor though.

    Here are a few videos I found.






    He has a propane bottle way too close to the flame/furnace for my comfort.
    Those things will explode if overheated.
    The propane is not necessary for a diesel start. Not sure about a waste oil start.
    I don't like the electronic igniter, since that is just one more thing to break, and is not required.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  11. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    Here is a combo unit from A to Z.
    The part about the nozzle starts at 11:40.
    I won't be using the electrodes, but I will use a return oil line which will connect to the side of the nozzle adapter (they do not use a return oil line in this video).

     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  12. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    A video on a pumped nozzle spray pattern.

     
  13. Dazz

    Dazz Copper

    Hi
    Has anyone considered using a fuel pump from any fuel injected car?
    The fuel pumps are submersed for cooling and are extremely reliable.

    Dazz
     
  14. OMM

    OMM Silver

    I use my old refrigerator compressor. I dump the fuel in and push it with a bit of air. My fuel lines are small. 0.25”
    OD & 0.1875” ID
     
  15. The viscosity of petrol vs waste oil may be a problem causing excessive loading of a pump not designed for higher viscosity oils. I'm currently using a Holden 202 red motor oil pump with integral oil filter but I had to modify it with a viton shaft seal to prevent leakage. A more suitable option would be a power steering pump as it's already designed for belt drive and just needs an inline filter and pressure regulator fitted. It churns the fuel through the regulator and gets it fairly hot which is a good thing as it thins it for the spray nozzles. Currently it uses a 2Hp motor driving the pump at 1440 RPM but really it should use a 3/4Hp motor driving it at 1000 RPM as I can't set the pressure much lower than 60 PSI at it's current speed. It's a total mess of BSP, NPT, Australian metric household plumbing solder and compression fittings.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  16. Dazz

    Dazz Copper

    Hi
    A pressurized fuel system looks like a lot better option than a siphon fed system requiring an air compressor.
    I found the local agent for Delavan so will see what range of nozzles they can offer.

    Dazz
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  17. Dazz

    Dazz Copper

    Hi
    Most likely that the pressure regulator can't handle the flow rate. You could try a bigger pulley on the pump.
     
    joe yard likes this.
  18. It would benefit from a larger regulator as the oil pump is a bit too large for the spray nozzle: I found it was using just over half a horsepower at 1440 RPM, so I'd get 20 minutes into running the furnace the motor (1440 RPM) would trip out. Right now it has a 2880 RPM motor I had lying around fitted and a 1:2 drive to get 1440 RPM, I think 1000 RPM will be about right for the pumped volume and the regulator.
     
  19. OMM

    OMM Silver

    What kind of fuel are you wanting to use?
    What kind of flow rate are you looking for?
    And with Delavan do you want to be airless?

    You could just use a small gear pump.
    5BBAF2D6-5B5F-4B5C-A844-12243CDF5CCC.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  20. Dazz

    Dazz Copper

    Hi
    A first look indicates that a car fuel injection system has about the right flow rate and pressure. A donor car can be the source of the pump, filter and pressure regulator (maybe even the battery).
    Using a fuel injection pump might restrict fuel choice to diesel but the added cost would be offset by avoiding capital cost of a compressor and operational expense of electricity.

    I do have a spare gear pump and motor but they are both the wrong size.

    From an operational point of view, one of the key advantages of a compressor-less system is that the furnace ancillary equipment (fuel tank, pump, blower etc) could all be installed in something like the bottom half of a 44 gallon drum as a single integrated unit.

    One of the biggest safety issues I have seen on YT videos apart from poor protective clothing is basic worksite house keeping. Too often I see the work area strewn with slip and trip hazards. This includes the various ancillary equipment (pumps, blowers, hoses etc) connected to furnace. Even those that take the trouble to wear really good safety gear are too often guilty of untidy work areas. So I see a key benefit of an integrated pressurized fuel system is an improvement in safety.

    Additional benefits would include easier setup and easier storage.

    My reading on this forum indicates fuel flow rate of somewhere between 1GPH and 3GPH. Nozzles are calibrated at 100psi but will operate at other pressures. Well within the capacity of a typical fuel injection pump.

    Dazz
     

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