Interesting cupola video

Discussion in 'Furnaces and their construction' started by Ironsides, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. Ironsides

    Ironsides Silver

    I was thinking of your A30 disaster. Here are two reasons why you will never build a large crucible furnace, 1. Making all the molds to use a large amount of molten iron 2. Building a large furnace and getting it to work the first time to fill up those molds. How many failures will you tolerate before giving up? Now there is a challenge for you.
     
  2. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    That was a real downer for sure.
    I must post photos.

    The backstory on the 70 lbs of solidified iron in a #30 crucible is as follows:
    1. Built my first iron furnace; put way way too much dense refractory in it, especially the lid.
    2. Warm-ups were very slow.
    3. Had no clue about burner settings.
    4. Had no clue about what the slag looked like on top of iron, or how to handle it.

    The lid vertical support pipe was too small, and was connected to the refractory with a band.
    The band slipped during mid-melt, jamming the lid half-open, but it would go no further, so no way to get the crucible out of the furnace.

    Lessons learned:
    1. How not to build a furnace.
    2. How not to run an oil burner.
    3. How not to melt iron.

    I still have the 70 lb ball of iron, and I use it in a concrete mixer to mull green sand, when I occasionally use green sand.

    It was a long litany of doing basically everything wrong that I could possibly do wrong.
    The result (happened in 2014):

    Iron-rIMG_3230.jpg

    rIMG_3233.jpg

    rIMG_3235.jpg
     
  3. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    The proverbial "ironsides throwdown challenge"...........LOL.

    I don't have the need for so much iron, but I could easily build the furnace, dual burners, and crane, and make it all work these days.
    I have come light years as far as iron melting knowledge from 2014.
    And I have the cash to do it too, although the wife would probably debate that point hotly.

    I haven't had a single failure with iron with the new furnace, and I get perfect iron castings every time these days. Having the correct know-how is no longer an issue with me; I have it down to a science, and the bound sand takes the guesswork out of mold making too.
    I use motor end bells, and I never vary from that, so I don't have any irregularities from using odd scrap metal that has unknown qualities.
    And I have the exact amount of fero worked out to give very minimal shrinkage, and perfectly machinable and uniformly machinable parts, even when the parts are thin.
    I never touch the fuel needle valve on my burner, and never have to adjust it.

    I know you have stated many times that nobody ever gets iron castings "down to a science", but I have done just that, basically by removing any variables from the process. I can repeatedly, predictably, and reliably pour high grade iron that is easily machinable (without annealing), and I can walk out to my furnace on any give day and make quality gray iron castings without any trouble.
    I also use variations on John Campbell's 10 Rules for Good Castings, and I have his book, and so those sprue/runner/trap/gate/riser methods are working well for me, without problems.

    Clarke could definitely use such a high-capacity furnace, and could use that much iron, and he has flasked lined up on two very long conveyor lines in his foundry, and apparently has an immense amount of green sand.

    I tolk Clarke that he should either operate one large furnace, as mentioned here in previous posts, or run three medium-sized furnaces, and go round-robin with the pours, with a new melt starting every 20 minutes.

    I think much of it amounts to economics of the cost of a large Morgan clay graphite crucible vs a small one (I don't have a quote for a #300 Morgan Salamander Super, but I am sure they are not cheap).
    Crucible life with iron is limited, and so one would have to do the numbers to see if it made sense to go with one big pour, versus multiple small ones.

    A larger crucible would definitely be much more difficult to handle, and sort of limits you to using a crane to pour.

    Clarke is doing a production line, and he pours a tremendous about of iron these days, so I always keep an eye open for potential methods for him to use.

    Perhaps a more viable approach if you wanted a lot of capacity, but still had small individual molds, would be to make a tilting furnace using a #300 crucible, and then use insulating fiber ladles, and pour out as you needed metal, much like the video you show at the beginning of this thread.
    Steve Chastain wrote a book about a tilting iron furnace, but as I recall, the furnace and crucible were so small that it made more sense to just lift out the crucible.

    The only serious drawback I see to using a #300 crucible is the mess it would make if it ruptured.

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  4. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    Here is a nifty little tilt-and-pour induction furnace, and this is the arrangement I would use if I were building a tilting oil-fired iron furnace with a large crucible.

     
  5. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

  6. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    Here is another interesting tilting-furnace design.

     
  7. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

  8. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    That's quite the boast Pat. Either you've been holding out on us in regard to all your castings or your fever is back.

    I think I understand Ironsides skepticism. Since the inception of THF, I can only recall two times you have attempted to cast a part. There was the windmill gear that was unsuccessful and this one where you did succeed (After 9 months) in casting a bearing cap and small straight edge.

    http://forums.thehomefoundry.org/index.php?threads/casting-a-bearing-cap-in-iron.551/page-5

    Now at that time you mentioned it was 18.8lbs in total and this was your twelfth pour but IIRC, more like 2 pours plus 10 melts because I think the rest were poured onto the ground or maybe an open face ingot mold in the ground.....right?

    Then you bought a 3D printer and printed all these patterns

    http://forums.thehomefoundry.org/index.php?threads/pattern-for-a-steam-engine.642/page-4#post-14782

    .....and I thought, ahhhhh, he's finally going to get after it now.......but ? What happened?

    Seems to me like you're in a perpetual loop of fiddling with your foundry equipment and would be better off devoting that time to casting parts. How about casting up some of those steam engine parts?

    A friendly challenge from me! .....and just keeping it real.

    Stay with it Pat.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  9. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    Not boasting, just stating fact.
    Are we in some sort of competition or something where we can't just state were we are in the learning curve? or is it bad form to say you now know what you are doing?

    Ironsides never mentions that even in my early days with high failures with iron, I produced two nice operating steam engines, with very nice iron flywheels, and there are no other model engines like them in the world. Below is one of the results of all those iron failures.
    With failures like this, who needs successes?
    Completed engine - 1.jpg


    Glad to see someone is keeping up with my threads.
    Cool beans; I hate posting into a vacuum.

    Its called a "work-a-lanche", I signed six times the number of normal work projects in 2019, and some of that work is due this spring.
    Everything has been full-stop as far as foundry work, until I can get caught up with work projects.
    Its just me, I don't have employees, and so I have to do six times my regular workload now.
    The good thing is I make what six people make, assuming I don't drop dead with fatigue.

    Nope, I have not really done much other than some minor adjustments on the lid of the new furnace.
    I don't need to fiddle with the new furnace; it works very well.

    I am going to convert over to a pressure nozzle, but that is a minor change to the burner.

    Ironsides and I have batted back and forth for years, and challenged/bantered each other.
    He is in an unofficial competition with anyone who does iron, and much of the joy in life he derives from pointing out the ignorance most others have about iron work (he has lush pickings there, like shooting fish in a barrel).
    The 15,000 subscriber thing has sort of inflated his ego rather large, but there can be no doubt he is one of the mainstays in the backyard iron casting hobby, and has been for many years.

    But people tend to think that ironsides is infalible given his successes, but he told me that it would take me 20 years to work out my sand, which is baloney, the resin sand I use has never caused problems, and it works beautifully every time.
    I learned how to do resin sand overnight.
    Ironsides is always right, except when he is wrong.

    But if 100 people were offering an opinion about an iron casting, and ironsides's opinion differed from the other 99, I would place my money on ironsides opinion; that is how often he is correct about iron topics (one must give credit where credit is due).

    So long story long, ironsides and I have done throwdown challenges to each other for a long time now, and his throwdowns to me have been a big help in keeping me interested in iron long enough to master it (yes, I did master it, and yes I know he would never agree with that statement).

    For the non-believers, drop by my house, and lets do some iron, and I can show you first hand; I don't have to bluff or brag or make up stuff.
    They say "put up or shut up, and I can definitely put up any day", so there is a throwdown challenge back at the backyard casting world.
    Seeing is believing, and I can make a believer out of people very quickly.
    But don't come over before about the end of April, because I am snowed with work right now.

    All my foundry work is on the back burner until probably mid-year.

    I have boxes of 3D printed patterns just waiting to be made into permanent patterns.
    Like they say in the wine industry "we shall cast no parts before their time".

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  10. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    I dont see where ironsides is in any competition with you Pat, if anything you try to compete with him by using your "book smarts"
    Talk is cheap Pat, ironsides produces results.
     
  11. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    Yeah, like that 15,000 subscriber plaque he made?
    That is what he makes; self-aggrandizing stuff.
    To each his own, but that is not my cup of tea.

    In one of his latest videos, he "dared" anyone to offer an opinion about one of his casting defects, then castigated anyone who disagreed with him.
    He doesn't want anyone else's opinions; he already has his mind made up.

    This is not an ironsides-bashing session; I admire the guy for what he has done, and what he still does, but I am not the only one that feels the way I do either.

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  12. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    I basically try to flesh out stuff that is stated about casting metal, to either prove it or disprove it.
    Its one thing to make good castings, and an very different thing to understand the process and document it correctly.

    The industry told John Campbell that his book was rubbish, and Bob Puhakka has made fools of industry, and continues to do so. Ignore "book smart" stuff at your peril.

    .
     
  13. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    If there was any validity to their research I would expect that industry would have adopted it by now. A Theory is all it is and will ever be.
    It was evident in their video that they purge the molds with inert gas, nothing new here...
    And so what if ironsides has 15k subscribers and makes a commemorative plaque?? WHATS IT TO YOU? jealous?

    You know what. Your not good for this forum. BYE!
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  14. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    ....back to regularly scheduled programming.

    Anyone know what that ceramic fiber ladle material may be? I ask because the moldable ceramic fiber (Aluminosilicate) I've been working with does great with nonferrous metal contact <2300F, but don't think it would like iron. A Zirconia based fiber maybe? But then what binder?

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  15. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    They are actually pre made liners. I think I posted a link to them in the links to various supplier area.
    They are pressed in forms, so I'm not sure if a homemade version would be very feasible..
     
  16. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Found it. But are any of these ladle liners fiber?

    https://easterncrucible.com/ladle-liners/

    I went back and skimmed the original video in post #1 but the ladles in the video do not appear to be fiber. However, the ones in post #12 do.

    http://forums.thehomefoundry.org/index.php?threads/interesting-cupola-video.979/#post-23012

    Most of the ceramic fiber shapes I'm familiar with are vacuum molded, but like I said.....<2300F service temp.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  17. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Looks like the ones I linked are cast, but I have seen molded fibre ones also.... now where was that at???
    I wish members would link more sources to suppliers ;):p
     
  18. Ironsides

    Ironsides Silver

    I have a similar very small ladle to dip in my a12 crucible so I can pour wedge tests for iron. It looks like ceramic fiber but if I spill iron onto my furnace floor which is ceramic fiber it will go straight through it. It lasts about 15 dips and get too thin so the bottom is likely to fall out. Really amazing stuff. I was given some but don't know where to get them in Australia.
     

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