Eagle Statue - Zapins

Discussion in 'Lost wax casting' started by Zapins, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    The feet weigh 21.5 lbs with a small amount of shell stuck up in the wood.

    That seems heavier than I was expecting. I think the conversion from wax to bronze is closer to 10-11 to 1 than the 8.6 I had thought initially. The feet alone were roughly half my crucible capacity which is pretty unexpected. I'll have to do minimal spruing on the eagle and do a full crucible specifically for it.

    Here are the feet cast. They cast pretty well there is minor damage or not filling on the top most part of the claw and wood. I think it is minor enough to repair without major problems.Maybe that is what the rattling was inside that I heard after burning out the shell? Broken shell trapped up against the highest point of the claw & wood?

    I'll make another bird and fit it to these feet then weld it all up later in a few months time when I can get back home again.

    The eagle had a blow out of its shoulder and so it didn't end up casting. I think it would have been a short pour even without the blow out though. So basically it cast pretty well and I think I don't need as many sprues as I initially thought. I'll simplify it and try again when I'm next home. That should also make the coating process easier with a less awkward & bulky object to coat.

    20180619_150159.jpg 20180619_150105.jpg 20180619_150025.jpg
     
  2. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Video of the failed eagle. I think it is still processing the higher res versions.
     
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  3. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Couple observations from my limited experience with this stuff. Lets talk about the bottom section first.

    1. I am not in love with your slurry. Call me biased and ignorant for lacking any hands on practice with anything other than suspendaslurry, but if you can screw it up, I've done it with SS.
    This stuff has been so forgiving on me and every time has made me come out looking like a pro.
    2. I am seeing some unexplained roughness on the far right claw upper part. (3:30) where you said you were concerned. No excuse for that part not looking like the rest. It was give the chance to vent as you said you did put one there. So where the hell is it? Granted, vents don't always fill and that's fine, but this one should have filled as everything above that point filled fine. I think the shell did break off and plugged the flow of metal. ( I can't remember, but isn't this the piece that had something rattling around inside it? ) If I'm right, you might have gotten lucky and the fallout is minimal. Broken shit inside will float to the top of the bronze and I think this area is as high as it gets. Look for damage elsewhere, that broken stuff came from someplace.
    3. The log on the far right side is easy to make look good after you hack off the roughness.
    4. The look of the wood gives me a woody. It's that nice! If I didn't know better, I would think it's really a branch. Nice work duplicating that.
    5. All in all, I think I'd call this one a success and I wouldn't change a thing spruing it if you chose to cast another bottom section. (maybe something bigger on the top of the right claw, it's easy to hack off later)

    Top section.
    1. Refresh my memory if necessary, but you poured the bottom first is what I remember. SO with that said, you got better surface finish on the top half of the eagle. Why is that? You're metal was a couple hundred degrees cooler.... (AT LEAST) So I believe this top was poured more than likely at the right temp and the bottom was poured too hot. This could account for number 2 above. In my short time I've seen a lot of what crucibles look like at night and through a video camera. Yours was too hot. The fox pour #2 had a great demonstration of the two melts I made on that. I want to see the top inch or two of the crucible turning dark. Easiest to see through a video camera. Simple fix for spotting this is more pours pal. I know you're swamped with school and goofy landlords. This is why I pour almost always around dusk so I can see this.
    Anyways, I would not attempt to pour these two sections at the same time. You are in a driveway with limited yet fashionable dressed for the beach assistants that looked mesmerized by a pot full of bronze.. lmao
    I haven't seen someone zone out like that in a while. Like the first time he probably saw boobs.
    2. The back of the bird looks amazing, the feathers are spot on and the finish is fantastic.
    3. At 1:10... I share your thoughts on removing the smaller side feeders. (THE SMALL ROUND ONES NOT THE BIG SQUARE ONES) As it sits now, you know this method worked on the back/sides of the bird.... You go and lose those the big ones and you might create a new problems. Ditching the small ones is a good call. Lowering the plumbing closer to the bird is also a good idea as this will make handling much easier. I wonder what the final weight of this section was with all that shell AND the wax. 30-40lbs my guess? That's a chunk of weight when you have to maneuver it dipping and sprinkling silica and I don't envy you at all. I HATE doing layer #6. #7 is easy because the wax is usually removed in my case and it's lighter.
    4. Shell layers. Before you poured we chatted and you were at 5/7. 5 inside for ease of removal and 7 on the outside and this was prior to dewax/burnout. You knew you got cracks when dewax was complete but didn't know where... I am guessing you didn't get adequate repairs on those cracked sections or else it wouldn't have leaked. (I know thank you captain obvious) I believe you put on an 8th layer of shell and crossed your fingers that it probably repaired the damage. Am I being fair so far? lol Here is where I have an issue with a closed dewax setup where you cannot see wtf is going on. In my very first dewax of that test piece I ran of something that looked like a martini glass with a wax plate on it.... Artospy spotted a crack all the way from France! It was that tiny tell tail of a flame coming from some place it shouldn't. After that thing cooled, I couldn't see the crack. I filled that cooled shell with water and here it came, pissing out that corner. A little paste of slurry and silica and yes one complete dip and all was well. Did you ever get that shell cooled all the way down where you could inspect it closely? This thing is way more complicated than the foxes I just did, but even that cracked shell in the video was patched and dipped and poured. That crack wasn't even visible in the final product! Where my dumb ass allowed slurry to go through the stupid vent holes DID show up despite me hauling ass to the garden hose to try to flush it out after I realized what a bone head mistake I made! Shell cracking is just a way of life for us I'm afraid, the trick is finding them and taking action before the metal goes in as you know. If in doubt, do not pour! Keep looking, it's fine to fill with water 50times if you have to, it's vitrified. Would the boil out method have worked? Hard to say at this point. You would have had to completely dry the shell and even then, I would have laid on 2 more layers of shell. The boil method DEFINITELY removes a tiny amount of shell on the outside as this stuff is water soluble after all. I'd like to think the inside isn't exposed to such violence of the "washing" action of the boil and that's why details are not lost. (my theory and I'm sticking to it)

    I really wish Artospy was here to lend some answers, I think he was moving. He's a wealth of knowledge on this stuff and I'm just an avid student. However I have studied this stuff intensely since you have known me. Please don't take my thoughts in the wrong way as none of us do this for a living and we all can learn from stuff like this. I learn more when I screw up by taking the time to dissect the issue and this helps prevent future whoops. I'm all too happy to share my f-ups and if this saves someone else from doing the same thing, my work is done. Please don't feel compelled to answer each of my bullet points here, I know I got long winded. This was only meant to shake up the neurons and maybe I might have hit upon a thing or two that will help in the future.
     
  4. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Gold Banner Member

    Not the lost wax guy here, but that all made sense to me.

    Can't be a coincidence that the messed up part of the bird foot and the end of the log were at the very top of the mold when you poured it, so a floating chunk of broken shell or something blocking those upper vents makes sense. Could maybe have been some shell that was filling in a crack in the wax log that just didn't have the support to stay put after the dewax was done or something?

    The part of the bird that came out really does look good. Too bad you couldn't chop out the good part and just have to cast the rest that's missing and hot glue them together! :D

    Jeff
     
  5. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Tobho - yeah tell me about it. That would be great. All the feather details would be difficult to recarve with a dremel though after welding them back.

    I think you're right about the shell breaking and plugging the top there. I heard larger chunks inside it but couldn't get them out. Not sure where the shell broke from, unless it was from the parts that didn't cast well or maybe from inside the hollow branch (the core?). I don't see any obvious defects other than the casting problems at the top. The defects are kind of weird though, if shell did pile up at the the top there then why wouldn't the metal have penetrated the cracks between them and solidified in place around the floating debris?

    Thanks, I agree the spruing was good on it I'll keep it the same next time.

    I did measure it before pouring. The temp was 2125 when I measured it in the furnace just before lifting. So it probably cooled a hundred or so before I poured the first part (claws). The eagle maybe another 50-100?

    It was super awkward and heavy. I need to make a better coating area, a larger bucket, etc. I'm starting to think a hook like you use might not be a bad idea to take some of the weight off my arm.

    Yeah I think for sure remove the little round ones. I think I'll add some sprues to the rim of the cut out belly for stability since the sprues can be a bit delicate without lateral supports. I don't think the sprues to the wing surfaces are needed at all. Definitely will plumb it closer to the surface and probably even cast it vertically rather than horizontally with the bird's back on the ground like I did.

    I did cool it and check. I coated an 8th time like you said. I think where I went wrong was I had it exposed to sunlight for an hour or so before I burned it out. I saw the cracks form from then all over the place, before I even put it in the burnout chamber. The other shells that were in the shade had no cracking and not even after burnout. The only piece that cracked was the bird in the sun... of course! Also, not having a proper burnout chamber for the bird was an issue. I'll build myself a proper one next time around though. Sigh always upgrading my tools. Always more to upgrade.

    Yeah I'm happy to hear your analysis, I don't like wasting time and cash pouring duds. The more thoughts/help on bad pours the better as far as I'm concerned.

    It would be nice to have art around again there aren't too many of us lost wax casters out there to begin with so finding help on specific problems is not easy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  6. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Sucks to say this, but when ya saw cracks form after the sunlight heating it, that was a good time to stop the show, cool it down and recoat a couple more times. I got lucky with that 2nd fox and saw the crack and saved it. It's 102 outside today so I have to keep everything in the AC right up until I am ready to dewax. For this microcrystaline to be "non expansive" the stuff sure looks pretty damn expansive to me. Good question about not finding the metal trapped with the floating debris.

    Now the fun part beings, ya gotta hack up the bird and bead blast that mess clean before you can remelt it. :( Not sure who told me this, but ya gotta get all traces of shell off your metal before you remelt it or it will come back to haunt you.:eek: Don't risk your next attempt. I'll drop Art an message through the board. Sure hope he doesn't vanish like Mantrid did. That one is still odd to me.
     
  7. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Yeah the inside of my garage stays nice and constant but outside it got zapped by the damn sun. Didn't even think of it until I saw the cracks. Probably would have been a good idea to stop the show and add more coats, problem was I was basically at my 1 handed lifting limit so coating it 2-3 more times wouldn't have worked. I'll just redo it with the mods we talked about and I think I'll get a good pour the 2nd time around. I consider my first bird pour an expensive test run. I need to order new slurry either way, I went through almost 5 gallons.

    Where'd you hear that about removing all the shell before melting? What happens if you don't?

    I was planning on angle grinding the thing to bits, or maybe hitting it with my new plasma cutter? Its rated for up to 1/2" of steel, though I heard people cutting thicker bits with it in the comment section on amazon.

    I think mantrid must have passed away, you don't lose every bit of your online presence if you're still around.
     
  8. Jason

    Jason Gold

  9. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    I think the shell would just float to the surface and you skim it off. It's not as dense as bronze that's why it floated to the top of the claws.

    Oh wow maybe I'll have a look and send him a message.
     
  10. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Please try him on FB if ya can.
     
  11. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Yeah I found him I saw his horse sculpture photos on facebook. I sent him a message to come say hi on the new forum. He last posted in may so he seems to be alive. Might be traveling I saw some pics that looked like exotic places.
     
  12. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Spoke with him yesterday via facebook he said:

     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
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  13. Jason

    Jason Gold

    he didnt say anything?
     
  14. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    LoL my bad. I copied my reply to him. I fixed the above post.
     
  15. Jason

    Jason Gold

    cool... hope we see him come back. He's good at this stuff. thanks man, I dont do FB.
     
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  16. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    I barely FB. Toxic site for the most part.
     
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  17. Jason

    Jason Gold

    OMG dude... quick pull that down before you get thumbed down clear to hell! lmao.
     
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  18. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Yep already did. Needs editing. Mothers iPhone doesn't auto rotate.
     
  19. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Good try. lol... Now I have a sore neck.
     
  20. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    That will be an impressive piece if you can get the process de-bugged.
     

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