Alloying Metals?

Discussion in 'General foundry chat' started by OCD, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. OCD

    OCD Silver

    I pulled the furnace out yesterday just playing around.

    Looked up the metal composition to silicone bronze.

    Weighed out 59 oz.'s of copper and had a ingot of wheelium that weighed 15.9 oz's.

    Clean copper was melted first, them wheelium ingot added secondly.

    During the entire process I did add some sodium, removed all dross and replaced the crucible back into the furnace to bring it back to the target zone temp of 1750-1800*.

    I even went as far to degas the mix.

    Didn't add any type of flux, w/o doing some research I'm not even sure if that is done during alloying.

    Preheated my new ingot tray and poured at around 1800*.
    I let it almost completely cool done before throwing it into a bucket of water.

    When to stamp it at the end and a good piece broke right off. Hmmmm :confused:
    I whacked the ingot in the middle with a hammer and it broke in half.
    Metal had become VERY brittle.

    I also noticed it had a smell of sulfur coming from within the inside.
    I inspected it this morning under a magnifying glass and notice there were small areas which appeared to be granular specks of copper which never dissolved.
    It still had that sulfur smell to it as well.

    Like I said, I was just messing around and curious.

    Any thoughts on this gentleman as to why the metals didn't incorporate along with the other odd things which happened?
     
  2. OCD

    OCD Silver

    Here's a couples pics of the inside of the ingot I speak of.

    Best pics I could get with a IPhone and magnifier.

    Just checked and the sulfur smell, or whatever that smell is seems to have diminished somewhat.

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]
     
  3. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    I think you may be confusing silicon bronze with Al-bronze. A common silicon bronze is Cu-95 Si-4 Mn-1.
    It's my understanding that copper with any more than 10% aluminum will be too brittle to be serviceable.

    Pete
     
  4. OCD

    OCD Silver

    Your correct Pete, meant Aluminum Bronze.

    That's actually strange as one would think with an aluminum content of higher than 10% the metal would actually become softer and not brittle.

    Had some pretty green flames leaping out of the furnace for sure.
     
  5. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    When alloying metals its the percentages of volume, not weight....

    Please Note:
    There has been a correction on this. Alloy percentages are by weight not volume.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2017
  6. OCD

    OCD Silver

    Ahhh, me learning.
    Guess I should have waited on the beer until after I read the percentage charts. :D

    Should some flux have been added during the final process to fuse the different metals together?
     
  7. OCD

    OCD Silver

    HT1, Don't even say it.

    Yes I have access to the Naval Foundry Manual.
    I was just bored and messing around with the furnace and some scraps.
     
  8. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Im not sure on the flux, but would think no. There is also some amounts of iron and silicon in aluminum bronze, so a pinch of FeSi would be good for the mix.
    At 59 G of copper, looks like 6 oz of aluminum. I question using wheelium for making up the alloy. This might be a good use for melting cans as they are almost pure aluminum.
    I dont alloy my own metals. So double check me.... :rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
  9. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

  10. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member


    Think i may be bass akwards....:D

    The percentages show the proportional composition of the alloy by weight. Copper is the remainder by weight and is not listed:

    Alloy Aluminium Iron Nickel Manganese Zinc Arsenic
    CuAl5 4.0–6.5% 0.5% max. 0.8% max. 0.5% max. 0.5% max. 0.4% max.
    CuAl8 7.0–9.0% 0.5% max. 0.8% max. 0.5% max. 0.5% max.
    CuAl8Fe3 6.5–8.5% 1.5–3.5% 1.0% max. 0.8% max. 0.5% max.
    CuAl9Mn2 8.0–10.0% 1.5% max. 0.8% max. 1.5–3.0% 0.5% max.
    CuAl10Fe3 8.5–11.0% 2.0–4.0% 1.0% max. 2.0% max. 0.5% max.
    CuAl10Fe5Ni5 8.5–11.5% 2.0–6.0% 4.0–6.0% 2.0% max. 0.5% max.
     
  11. OCD

    OCD Silver

    Your going to MAKE me read that entire dang manual, aren't you? :eek: ;)
     
  12. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    What?? There's a manual for this?? :eek::eek:
    Maybe ill just weigh out some metals and try it myself, beats reading about it ;):rolleyes:o_O
     
  13. Luckygen made some silicon bronze successfully:

     
  14. Dumb question time but not taking anything for granted....
    If alloying aluminum with copper; (or any higher temp melt) I assume I would heat the aluminum up to the point or temperature to melt the copper. Wouldn't it be hard on the aluminum to heat it that high?
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  15. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Gold Banner Member

    Cae2100 made some al-bronze with too much aluminum in it then tried Machining it...
    Hacksaw: nope
    File: nope
    Hypno-shaper: nope
    36 grit grinder disc: yup

    Video on his Chirpy's Tinkerings channel, if you hadn't seen it:


    Jeff
     
  16. HT1

    HT1 Gold Banner Member

    UMM??? what SiBR has aluminum in it???? sounds like you made aluminum bronze which requires the aluminum be stirred using an up and down motion
    AlBr will not like Phos Cu, which I assume was your degasser.
    if you did not flux the Cu you definitely picked up gas there . and you need some Fe to get a usable alloy of AlBr

    Here are the Navy instructions
    AlBr instructions USN NAVEDTRA 12207.jpg

    V/r HT1
     
  17. OCD

    OCD Silver

    OK, You can say it now.

    Thanks HT1,

    I guess I should have looked in the manual instead of looking up the metal content on line. :oops:

    Also looks like I poured slightly cooler than the specs. :oops: :oops:

    Back to the laboratory. :D
     
  18. HT1

    HT1 Gold Banner Member

    that is not the Navy Foundry Manuel, its NAVEDTRA 12207 Aug 1993, it is the last Navy foundry publication, so it's info is newer, though alot of the old stuff like gas fired furnace info is gone. here is my favorite brass casting book, https://www.abebooks.com/9780830618101/Casting-Brass-C-W-Ammen-0830618104/plp


    V/r HT1


    P.S. if your bored, let me know I'll mail you a few patterns and you can do some casting for me:)
     
    dennis likes this.
  19. Robert

    Robert Silver

    When making an alloy you do not need to reach the MP of the highest MP material. Typically the metals will dissolve into each other. You need to reach the MP of the final alloy. I have made Red Brass, Everdur and various experimental compositions. The easiest way is to start with a heel of the alloy and melt it, then add new alloying materials incrementally. Zinc loss in brass is sometimes a problem since it boils off. Unless you are working in industry you can tolerate being a few percent off.
    Everdur is a very nice alloy to work with. Cu95, Si4, Mn1.
    OCD- Do you have metallic Si? You can make everdur without the Mn and it casts fine. I think the Mn is added for corrosion resistance.
    Robert
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
    David Ashenbrener likes this.
  20. Jason

    Jason Gold

    I'm too dumb to make my own Everdur. I get nice almost guaranteed results with the store bought stuff. I applaud anyone who trys and can do it successfully, but I simply don't have the time to mess with it. Maybe some day if i ever get to retarded like the rest of you. :(

    20170507_211055-1.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2017

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