New lathe project

Discussion in 'Other metal working projects' started by Petee716, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg Whelp, I just couldn't say no for $150. The widow across the street died and her heir is cleaning out the barn. The Belvedere ragtop was not in my budget so...

    It looks to be turn of the century but I haven't found any numbers on it. The motor runs, the headstock spins, and the grime is grimey. That's all I know for now. I'll have it home tomorrow and get the dust wiped off over the weekend. Then the cleaning will begin. It came with change gears and a 4-jaw.

    Pete
     
    Rtsquirrel and oldironfarmer like this.
  2. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Looks like a real beast. It should easily make square things round once you get it cleaned up. :)
     
  3. dtsh

    dtsh Silver

    Nice score, I've got a 1903 Seneca Falls and I find it's at least as good as I am. Assuming it's not worn out, you'll have a capable machine. Looks like a 4 jaw chuck underneath it and some other change gears, certainly looks like a good score to me.

    As for it's age and identicifation, they made a variety of models and the best guess is usually to look at the patent dates cast on the front of the bed, gives a reasonable approximation. Can compare it to patent date lists online to get a date range. May be a serial number on the ways near the tailstock.

    http://www.lathes.co.uk/senecafalls/index.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  4. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    It looks like a real hoss.
    The first lathe I used had flat belts on it, and I remember pushing on a foot lever to relieve the belt tension so that the speeds could be changed.
     
  5. The "Antique machinery and History" subforum over on Practical Machinist can bring you up to speed on exactly what you have there. It doesn't look like it was ever made with a quick change threading gearbox so you'll need to have the stack of 10 or so change gears in the box underneath it to allow you to cut various thread pitches. The spindle is back geared to get slow speeds via that idler shaft with two gears next to the spindle, so there should be a small pin somewhere on those gears either side of the flat belt pulley that engage or allow one of the gears to spin freely: most likely the oil has dried out and will need disassembly and a good clean to prevent losing a few cast iron gear teeth. One of those four gears has to free wheel and spin freely somewhere.

    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  6. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    It appears to be a pretty widely distributed lathe and there's quite a bit of good information on the web with some digging. Thanks for the encouragement. More to come.

    Pete
     
  7. _Jason

    _Jason Silver

    Great find! You can't even buy that for scrap prices out of someone's pasture down here. We just don't have a supply of quality used tools like that in my part of the world.
     
  8. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Gold Banner Member

    Can't go wrong at that price, great find!

    Jeff
     
  9. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    That's a nice find.

    It definitely needs a good sprucing up but you'll have it up and making stuff in no time!
     
  10. Check for play in the headstock bearings (just wiggle the chuck side to side), they're likely poured babbit. If it's loose you can learn to use it but it may still be pretty good. Lots of lathes never got used much.

    Great find! And will be the cat's meow for boring tubes to size (like making sleeves to fit right). That's a big lathe.
     
  11. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    Preliminary cleaning is almost done so I can at least make observations without getting all greasy.

    image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg


    I gave the chuck a pretty good amount of effort and couldn't feel any movement at all so the spindle bearings pass the wiggle test. I also looked down into the spindle oil caps with a flashlight and its shiny down there, also a good sign. The machine hasn't been operated in at least 8 or 9 years but aside from the spindle, most of the other oil holes were abandoned way before that, although nothing other than the cross slide and compound are sloppy so far.
    The tailstock functions well. The condition of the taper is yet to be seen.
    The 3-jaw is stuck on. I watched Mr Pete (Tubalcain) show how to free it up by chucking up a piece of hex stock and using an impact wrench with the lathe in neutral and the gear pin pulled. I've got penetrating oil on it and will try his suggestion tomorrow.
    The apron controls work just as far as I know how to use them, but the cross slide and compound have definitely seen better days. They are functional but have been neglected and abused. They'll be coming apart for a closer look, but unplugging the oil holes will be the first order of business. The compound has been welded or brazed and has obviously been impacted a number of times.
    The tool holder mounted in the toolpost is pretty neat. I thought I'd gotten a better picture of it.
    I unpacked the goody box. Some parts don't go with it, but there's a good handful of tool holders and it looks like at least most of the change gears are there.
    I'll be doing some dismantling for the sake of cleaning more thoroughly and for closer inspection, but I don't really want to disturb the spindle bearings. Does anyone have any recommendations for how I might flush the old lube out without dismantling them? I don't think there are wicks in there.

    Pete
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Nice old gal. That thing need a cover to keep from getting your balls caught up in a spinning gear.
     
  13. dtsh

    dtsh Silver

    Looks pretty good cleaned up.

    As for flushing it out, I'd suggest dismantling it bit by bit and cleaning/checking it all as you go. Shortly after I got mine I pulled the spindle out to check it and the bearings as well as pulled the apron apart and cleaned all the gears and oiler tubes. Bearing material in mine appears to be bronze. I tend to take pictures as I tear things apart to reference when I go to resassemble, my poor memory only gets worse if there's more than a few moments from disassembly to reassembly.
    Looks like you've got a nearly complete change gear set assuming the ones on the lathe aren't duplicated among those on the bench.

    Did you find any patent dates on the front of the bed?

    May or may not help you, but the spindle nose on mine is 1 7/16-12TPI, tailstock taper is Jarno #5.
     
  14. joe yard

    joe yard Silver

    Hi Pete
    I have seen and owned a few machines of that period. The legs and width of the belt along with the bronze bearing would all indicate around 1915 +/- 10 years. The bearings can be cleaned without dismantling with a heavy flush of break cleaner followed by a good synthetic motor oil. The older organic oils tend to get gummy in time with the open bearings in air. They sell all kinds of oil for the machines but a good synthetic works as well or better than most of the specialty stuff.
    On the cross slides there is 2 types of slop. 1 is backlash caused by a worn screw / nut fit. This is something all machines have and unless it is very bad or binding. For the age of the machine you just live with it. If it is to bad replace the nut. You would probably have to cast and machine a new one.
    The other is worn jibs and ways. The jibs are bronze slides that run against the ways. “ The tapered cast iron casting.” The bronze wears the most and can be sanded back to fare to good condition with a sheet of sand paper on a flat. The ways get more involved but most likely will not be of concern. The screws that adjust the ways are most likely seized and can de next to impossible to get broke lose. Be very careful not to damage the castings.
    The lead screw is the only power feed on this machine so it will probably have quite a bit of wear on the split nut that grips it during feeding. The lead screw and half nut is an Acme thread so the specs are there for repair if needed. The nut will be the part that first shows wear problems. If it does. It will be made of bronze and would be an interesting casting project. It will probably weigh just under 1 lb if it is 1 piece or just a couple of ounces if it in the unlikely event it is a split nut in an arm. The lead screw might be worn but unless it is very bad. Don’t worry about it on this machine.
    The tail stock tapper, best gues would be a Jacobs No. 3.
    It is very time consuming but for rusted in, seized dolts. A through soak in a oil free solvent to remove the oil and then soak in white vinegar several days to a month almost always does the trick without causing any damage to the castings.
    Joe
     
  15. You should be fine to remove the spindle bearing caps to clean the bushes so so long as you pay attention to any shims that set bearing clearance and replace them in the exact location if any exist. Clean any rust on the ways with steel wool rather than scotchbrite as it has abrasives.
     
  16. I wouldn't stress over getting the chuck off. Get the lathe oiled up and use it a few months before spending too much time on the chuck and possibly breaking something. Some people only use a four jaw chuck, I almost always use a three jaw for the stuff I do it's plenty accurate. If you really need a four jaw buy a used small four jaw and chuck it up in your three jaw.

    Lot's of good advice here. Since the spindle oil cavities look good I'd oil them good and turn by hand. When a little leaks out run it under power to get it warm and loosen things up.
     
  17. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    Wow, lots of great input so far, especially regarding my manhood. It's a shame the original cover is gone, but be assured I will be making some provision before putting the power to it. Everything moves freely so there won't be need for power for a little while.
    As a disclaimer, I've been running a 40's model Southbend 9 with quick change gearbox for a couple of years. It was my first. I am a self-taught novice through books, YouTube, and forums, so by all means assume I know very little.
    http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?11622-Pete-s-sb9
    It has a 3-jaw and 4-jaw which I switch out fairly often depending on what I'm doing.

    There is a stack of patent dates, the latest being Nov 5 95. There is also a 5 digit serial number stamped a couple inches from the end of the ways between the v's. It seems to be the consensus on the web that the SR number won't help much in dating the machine. Other details like what Joe yard mentioned appear to be the best way to estimate the vintage. Other details that appear to be helpful in that regard are the shape of the apron knobs as well as the retainers for the change gears. I'm sure there are others as well.

    There is someone parting one of these out right now on eBay and he actually has pictures of the apron on both sides so I can get a good idea of what it looks like before I start monkeying with it.

    With regards to the spindle bearings I will flush as prescribed above but will be unafraid to open them if it seems like I need to.

    One other tidbit of interest. This was modified at some point by the addition of a combination mount for the motor and countershaft. It isn't factory, but it appears to be well made and effective.


    image.jpeg
     
  18. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    Things are a bit rough on the compound. It has been broken and repaired and ready to break again. The short base allows for quite a bit of overhang. The end of the toolpost holder shows obvious signs of being struck repeatedly so the break makes sense.

    Pete


    image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg
     
  19. Over on one of the machinist forums someone described a lantern style toolpost as a "Compound slide smashing device".
     
  20. That's a nasty slide. I'd look for something off another lathe to modify to fit.
     

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