Surface finish help

Discussion in 'Investment casting Ceramic shell method' started by ka_6772, Apr 11, 2020.

  1. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    I need help solving these surface issues. I'm not sure if it's shrinkage, gas, or what. The shell is smooth as can be. The part is heavier on the ends. The section with the issues is 3/16" thick. The interior is not showing these defects. The part is 1 lb 6 oz. The sprue and risers are 1 lb 8oz. I expected these thin sections to cool first.

    Material: Early 90's GM wheel. The majority of it was precast (clean) muffin tin ingots.
    Furnace: Electric Kiln
    Graphite crucible
    Degassed with Argon for about 5 minutes.
    No flux
    Cast at 1430 F.
    Shell: Suspendaslurry FS. Rancosil A & B Stucco. Fired at 1800F for a hour. Buried to the top in sand before casting. Allowed to cool 20-ish hours before removal.

    Thanks,
    Kevin

    0410201731.jpg 0410201731a.jpg 0410201732.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2020
  2. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Im not real sure on this one. What was the parts orientation during the pour?? And what was the pattern material, wax, foam, other ??
     
  3. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    This was PLA that had been coated with shellac and sanded. This was the first time I used shellac. The shell pieces are still gas permeable. I can blow through them, but I did seem to have air coming back through the sprue when pouring. This doesn't usually happen. I have two more ready to start investing. I have made improvements to printing and one will not have shellac. The two unsanded sides are the same part. The other one, I hit with 320. It will be able to be polished easily. I cast them about 6 inches apart in a metal trashcan full of sand. I put the lid on and came back the next evening. They were still very warm to the touch.

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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2020
  4. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    I have a few more questions, and some ideas on how to correct... but wife is making me mow the yard :( Ill be back later....
     
    ka_6772 likes this.
  5. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    What was your shell temperature when poured??

    Im thinking this is mostly caused by your pour temp being a bit low, but could have been caused during solidification with the thicker parts drawing metal from the thinner sections. I would try raising your pouring temp to 1550 with a shell temp of 600 F and do not bury them in sand...

    I would also not mess with degassing, alot of times this can cause more problems than it cures (but I don't think that was the issue here)

    Biggest improvement would come from gating into the bottom of the casting so that the part fills from the bottom up. You could run the sprue down the side in the same orientation as you previous casts and gate it into the bottom section, the round protrusion, and finally at the top flange as a vent point. Im assuming this part is for a auto intake??? Looks pretty trick!
     
  6. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    I don't know the temp of the shells. After being fired at 1800+ for an hour, I add my loaded crucible to the kiln. I add metal to it after it melts. The metal was over 1500 when I pulled it and started degassing. I then pulled the shells and buried them. My intention was to pour at 1350 but lost patience and poured at 1430. The exposed part is still way too hot for welding gloves but the rest could be cooled rapidly by the sand. I bury the shells because I've had issues with cracks in the past with larger parts. I'll add another coat and have sand ready if I need to bury. I'll sprue up and post pics. Yes it is for an intake.

    Thanks,
    Kevin
     
  7. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    Is this what you meant?
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Why bury the shells? It's not really necessary unless you don't trust it. I pull shells straight from the kiln and get to pouring as fast as my feet will take me. Don't dink around and get her done!
    Nice part. What's it for?
     
  9. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    It's for a cathedral port LS. I haven't had any issues with this part cracking but I have with larger ones.

    Thanks,
    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

  10. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Ok, I see what your doing..
    Fire your shells, then let them cool and inspect them for cracks and blow them out in case any loose bits are in them. You can patch them up later with some slurry if you need to. You really dont want the shell temp too high for casting as it can cause all sorts of weird shrinkage issues with aluminum..
    I actually cast aluminum into cold shells if the casting has any kind of thickness to it. But with your cross section I think you should shoot for 600f (or 550 in the wife's oven) ;) while melting your aluminum in the kiln.

    I've also found that doing a slow ramp up in temps for burn out of the pla has less cracking issues than if you flash fire.
    Also the pla seems to have less issues with cracking the shell than regular pla.

    Gating more like this.... excuse my horrible art work, but should give you an idea...
    20200411_162952.jpg
     
  11. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Pretty slick!! I'm dropping an LQ9 into my 56 buick when I find the time....
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    Hopefuldave likes this.
  12. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    This is for the smaller heads, but I plan on doing rectangles too. That Buick is sweet. I currently have 15 cars. 8 are driving. There's never enough time or money.

    Starting cold was cracking shells. I preheat to 500 before putting them in. The really rough side of the one casting has shell debris embedded in places. I can't tell where it come from though. I'll plan to fire, cool, clean/inspect and preheat for casting without burying.

    Thanks,
    Kevin
     
  13. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    Is this more like it? Is the second cup overkill?

    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

  14. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Try the solutech ultra pla, so far it seems to have made a big difference for me. Prints nice too.. and let me know what you think.
    And be sure to post pictures of the finished product. We love pictures here :D
     
  15. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Yea, you won't need the cup for the riser...
    And you can slim down that sprue. Might want to consider printing the gating system so it has a bit of strength to it...
     
  16. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    Will do.

    Thanks,
    Kevin
     
  17. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Hey, how many shell layers have you been going with??
    I've been using 10 but I use a graded play sand for all the layers. Makes the shell between 1/4" and 3/8" when done...
     
  18. ka_6772

    ka_6772 Copper

    I'm using Ranco-sil A and B from Ransom and Randolph. I think they are 30-50 and 50-100 mesh. I'm going to be running out of the larger size and was considering experimenting with play sand for the backup coats. These were done with 4 coats followed by a seal dip. I changed my setup so I could hang the parts to drip and left them there until they pretty much stopped dripping before cat boxing. I hang the parts in front of a box fan with heat lamps on either side. I monitor the color and wait for surface temps to start climbing before I recoat. These were coated on Sunday, fired and cast Mon evening. The shell thickness is 0.19-0.21" everywhere I measured. My only concern with more coats is difficulty in removing shell from the interior of the runners. It's already a pain. I've been using an air chisel to vibrate the part. Injector bungs are completely filled and a real pain. Here's a pic of some on my BBC intake. I think it had 6 coats. I switched to working on the LS because the parts are smaller and less heartbreaking fail after fail after fail.

    Kevin
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    To me that looks like debris in the mold but as David notes, there can be some strange Ju-Ju from time to time with aluminum in shell. If it was on the bottom (sinking debris) or top (floating debris) I'd say more likely the latter but the burn out residue can sometimes adhere to the shell as well.

    I'm a lost foam caster but used to use shellac occasionally as glue and to in attempts to improve surface finish. I stopped using it because as glue it didn't burn out very cleanly compared to other glues and didn't improve the finish because of how it burned and reacted with molten metal. Of course, this was unfired before metal contact, and with shell, you are able to burn out at much higher temp.

    That's an enormous sprue for the size of the part. I realize with shell it can be as much about having enough strength to handle the shell weight. Styrofoam cups are convenient but conical pouring cups are notorious for aspirating air. Since you have a preheated mold, you can probably tolerate some air entrainment because it will buoyantly escape, but it is suboptimal and can create oxide defects.

    To eliminate entrained/aspirated air, I think you'd see a big improvement if you used a rectangular offset pouring basin with a Weir, and a tapered sprue (rectangular is actually preferred). You could just carve it out of Styrofoam and glue it to the top of your sprue then shell as usual.

    Pouring cup.jpg

    I don't know how big you're crucible is, but you could also hang 2-4 of those intake runners around a central sprue and shell and cast four at a time.

    I cast a lot of automotive parts and have built many carbed and EFI independent runner induction systems.......we're kindred spirits.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  20. DavidF

    DavidF Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    An intake has been on my to do list for some time now. Been working on a cylinder head for a v8-60 for now. It wont be investment cast, just sand cast using the print to cast a master pattern in aluminum. One day I'll get it finished up....
    This one was printed to double check the bore and valve locations..
    20191226_133215.jpg
     
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