Tobho's HT1-Inspired Cement Mixer Muller Build

Discussion in 'Sand Mullers' started by Tobho Mott, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. More advice from non-experience.

    I think I read somewhere that sea coal is charcoal. Maybe someone who knows will chime in.
     
  2. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    If you search zinc ingot on eBay you'll find it for ~$2/lb salvaged from/sold as marine anodes. Also good for Zamack alloying.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  3. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    I read that sea coal is essentially ground up bituminous coal. Too bad, I do have access to some charcoal dust...

    Jeff
     
  4. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    I found that sea coal made a huge difference for me when casting iron—-sand just falls or brushes off. No exp. with bronze. I bought mine from local CANADIAN ( just cross the border from me ) OCL Foundry supply. If you absolutely can not find some locally, I could send you 5 pounds. It’s just that shipping to our good friends to the north is ( I think) usually silly expensive. But, let me know if you want to go that route.

    Seems like someone has to have it in your area. Mine is simply mineral coal ground to table salt fineness. It is not nearly as fine as flour, for example
     
  5. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  6. _Jason

    _Jason Silver

    If you can't find sea coal somewhere, I wonder if you could substitute graphite powder?
     
  7. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Found a note on Smelko Foundry Products' site mentioning seal coal, wood flour, and gilsonite as "carbonaceous additives", and "a couple other carbonaceous additives" are Tim's (Smelko, owner) exact words for what is used in their sand blends for aluminum casting (I'd been asking about the sand from there that I already have).

    Saw in Ammen's handbook that sea coal is "ground bituminous coal marketed in various grades".

    Found a blacksmith within 40 minutes of home selling 70# bags of soft bituminous blacksmithing coal for $45CDN. See where I'm going with this?

    Maybe I can cover the sea coal and wood flour without too much trouble after all. Heck, maybe if I go to look at bags of coal he'll have some powder left over from thebottom of the bags he goes through on his own there that he'd be willing to let go in smaller amounts. I would not know what to do with 70 pounds of coal! Not before Christmas anyhow... Also not sure at all how hard the stuff would be to crush into powder. Apparently he also gives lessons, might be fun to try sometime.

    The funny thing is, in his email Tim said the carbonaceous additives improve surface finish, while his website says they improve collapsibility. Meanwhile Ammen's book says it's peel that they improve, which is what I'm after and seems to be confirmed by melterskelter's post above... I swear, if I ever find 2 credible sources agreeing about stuff like this, I'm probably gonna keel right over and die of shock! :D

    Jeff
     
  8. Yeah, I was thinking 50 cents per pound.:rolleyes: My local cathodic protection company sells anodes for $2 per pound. Since I get free copper I was looking for cheap brass...
     

  9. Thanks! I knew it was something I had around.

    Tobho: Coal is easy to break. How much do you put in? Coal dust in a blacksmith shop is very usable. You wet it down, drag it up to the fire, and it will coke right up into large clumps. It is also used when hot punching as a lubricant to keep a punch from sticking. You might grind it up in a sausage grinder or he may want to sell coal dust.
     
  10. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    They're too hard to be zinc, and the threads hold up better than aluminum would, so I'd expect they're Zamak of some sort. Mine didn't melt while actually using the furnace. I place a 55gal drum over the furnace right after I'm finished with it. I did it after my final firing of the furnace and the next time I lifted the drum they were toast.

    Pete
     
  11. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    Jeff,

    Let me play devils advocate concerning your toying with doing "hard labor" breaking coal into coal powder/meal. The one thing I might wonder about is whether too much coal dust or powder might reduce porosity of your green sand. Do I know that is a problem? Nope. I would just have that concern in the back of my head. That might be why the foundry sea coal I got was somewhat coarse at least compared to powder and there weren't many fines in it. So, if you do decide to try smashing up coal, (videos are required!) you might sieve out the fines, so you end up with a coal "sand" that is less likely to cause reduced porosity.

    I will gladly accept any criticism of this suggestion as needless worry cuz I may be way off base.
     
  12. Petee716

    Petee716 Gold Banner Member

    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    Melterskelter likes this.
  13. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    Great find , Pete.

    The conclusion paragraphs were good too suggesting particle size of sea coal had slight affect itself on permeability, but the sea coal does generally reduce permeability.
     
  14. So can you dust the mold with powdered coal prior to closing?
     
  15. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Good links, thanks Pete!

    I reached out to that local blacksmith inquiring about a couple pounds of coal dust, we'll see.

    Peedee posted a reference in the AA thread to the flaming graphite spray idea also helping avoid the defects I'm seeing, so maybe that will be my plan B instead of crushing lumps of coal into powder, which I have no idea how hard that would be (I suspect not much fun). I don't think I've ever even seen a piece of coal in real-life, much less tried to crush one, so it's hard to be sure.

    There's still the corn or wood flour idea on the table too, but I haven't found any confirmation yet that it would help the sand not stick to bronze castings.

    Navy manual suggests the metal penetration on the bottom of my ingots could be due to insufficient ramming (the flask I use is a little too shallow, so the bottom is a thin section of sand; this seems plausible) or the sand being too open (suggests adding more clay or additives that might decrease permeability may not be too detrimental?)...

    Thanks for all the suggestions guys!

    Jeff
     
  16. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Jeff, you should get HT1 to weigh in. Would think the matter would be old hat to him with his experience and more recently his plaque sand castings......where finish matters.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  17. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Been kinda hoping he'd pop in with a hint or two... yeah, maybe it's time to send him a PM.

    Jeff
     
  18. You should get you a lump of coal and break it up just for experience. Hardness varies a lot, but basically it's about like plaster. A little pecking with a hammer breaks it right up.
     
  19. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Sounds not that bad. I'll do it if I have to! :D

    Jeff
     
  20. Peedee

    Peedee Silver

    Sorry, should have posted here really but get lost between the two threads.

    Seems to be a brush on graphite (Suspended in a volatile) I know it is used with iron, maybe the same applies to bronze temps, they mention refractory nature of the coat.

    My post on AA:

    Here's an interesting link:

    http://www.hillandgriffith.com/alcoh...g-mold-coating

    I noted this particularly "Prevents burn on, burn in, metal penetration problems."
     

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