Trouble Finding Small Letters---~3/16" High Have them CNC'd?

Discussion in 'Pattern making' started by Melterskelter, Jun 9, 2022.

  1. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    I am having trouble locating plastic letters for pattern making about 3/16" high. I do not think Freeman makes them any more. I had a local engraving shop laser some out, but the kerf needed is pretty large and so the line weight of the letter is too thin and aligning the letters is also problematic.

    I can add draft with paints and shellac as long as I can get the letters neatly applied. The "stencil" resulting from lasering the letters I had made is too loose to really assist in providing a neat application of the letters to the pattern. I think 1/32 height would be adequate. So, is additive printing of such letters a viable option? A pretty smooth surface would be desirable. I do not own a printer and have not (yet) acquired the necessary skills. The other option might be to use a small CNC router to cut out the letters leaving them attached to a thin backing. Actually having them on a thin backing either way would be ideal as that ensures precise spacing and alignment. If needed, I could mill a flat into my pattern to let the backing and letters into the surface.

    What I am looking to print in a vertical alignment is :

    F F W 2
    O E E 0
    S A I 0
    T T G ,2
    E H H
    R E T
    R
    With each word on its own back plate.

    I'd be willing to pay someone a reasonble charge if they can do this work.

    If someone is aware of a good source of small plastic letters, I'd be appreciative.

    Denis

    Added: My apologies for the funky spacing of the supposed-to-be vertically-aligned and spaced words above. They look great in the editor window. But spacing gets hashed when I posted. Sorry.
     
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  2. Patrick-C

    Patrick-C Silver

    I have a CNC machine. And I think these letters are something that I am capable of. I do have plastics that I can machine them from. Let me know if you are interested.
    Patrick
     
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  3. FishbonzWV

    FishbonzWV Silver Banner Member

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  4. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Not in plastic but they have choices in white metal, aluminum and brass.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  5. ESC

    ESC Silver Banner Member

    I make letters using DYMO embossing tape. Bondo is molded in the reverse side of the tape and then individually mounted with super glue.
     
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  6. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    It has been a while since I checked, but the Freeman prices for metal type was remarkably high when I did check on it. Just to be sure, I'll call again tomorrow. Unfortunately their catalogue does not include pricing. They make some very good products, but I do wish I did not have to playu the quote game with them. I may be able to get some letters CNC'd. It would be cool to have a tiny CNC device.

    Denis
     
  7. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    You should apply for online account. It's not hard and once you do you have visibility of all pricing and easy ordering. I have 1/4" thin gothic plastics. If you can stand that I'll send you what you need. Just PM me.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  8. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    THanks for the offer, Kelly. I have that size too. Too big though. I do have an account. I'll take another look at the catalogue to see if prices appear. I just looked tonight, but maybe I was not logged in.

    Size is an issue on this pattern. I also like a system that helps with the alignment so the "S's" and "C's" are nice and vertical without a lot of fussing. Thus, my exploring the CNC route. I've done the loose letters and can get them close, but then I always see they are not QUITE all straight... OCD at work, I guess.

    Denis
     
  9. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    So, I went back into the website while logged in. Individual 3/16 metal letters are 1.97 each and all the letters I looked at were "special order" so long lead times may apply per their catalogue. I think I'll see what comes up on the CNC front. I have a coupple leads of people willing to do it.

    Denis
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
  10. HT1

    HT1 Gold Banner Member

    , that price will drop by 50+% if you buy the bags of 10 of each letter, I know that is painful if you dont expect to use the letters again
    you have to let the OCD go, you are making something hand crafted, it's only supposed to be SO perfect, thats how people know it is hand crafted , not just CNC'd out of a block


    V/r HT1
     
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  11. Rocketman

    Rocketman Silver Banner Member

    An entry-level resin 3d printer can make some phenomenal pattern lettering. A very good investment for many other pattern related uses as well.

    I just printed a nameplate for a new pattern, I will get a picture of it tomorrow.
     
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  12. Tops

    Tops Silver Banner Member

    The kid has one or two in various states of disrepair. They are more fussy in general than filament printers. More effort washing out/off the part and keeping the resin fresh but totally agree the level of detail is amazing.

    What software and/or font are you using to make the letters? I get into situations where I can draft and fillet some letters nicely and not others and do not always feel like deconstructing them to t he point where I can, unless that is the real way...only 4 characters this time failed to taper.
    TOPS_DENIS_LETTERS.png

    TOPS_DENIS_LETTERS2.png TOPS_DENIS_LETTERS3.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  13. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    But, I LIKE the OCD! ;-) I really do have a problem with slightly wonky lettering. Especially when I know a fairly simple and really clean solution is available.

    Buying individual letters from Freeman at those prices and having to adjust my work to the letters instead of adjustiing the letters to the work is really backwards, I feel.

    So, somewhat like a pinball machine, I've been bouncing from one idea to another. And a desktop 3-D resin printer is starting to look like a very viable solution. I've been reading about print quality, resin cost, setup issues, etc associated with them and it looks like a desktop printer is likely the way I should go. That way I can select from a nearly limitless font set, print a trial string of letters and see how they look and feel on my pattern and tweak the results until I am happy vs buying a set of letters sight unseen, working to get them on the pattern and compromising accepting a not quite ideal solution because of cost and delivery delay issues.

    I am thinking a PHROZEN Sonic Mini UV Photocuring LCD Resin 3D Printer might just be the answer. And I am writing that here to see how badly off-track that idea might be. So, what do folks think? Any expeerience with resin printers? Any fatal flaws?

    Denis
     
  14. Mach

    Mach Silver

    I recently bought an Elegoo Mars printer but was disappointed with the results. SLA printers have a problem with plate side deformation of the printed object that I could not get around for my deadline. The test objects printed great but the parts that I needed did not. I punted and went with an online 3D print shop that does SLS printing. I'll get back to SLA eventually but it was not an out of the box print and go. I used https://craftcloud3d.com/ this time (instead of shapeways) and the results were good and cheaper.
     
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  15. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    If you're going to make the leap, I'd make sure you include the capability to add draft on your wish list. That's more of a CAD than printer issue. Without, you're missing out on the ability to use them as printed without fuss avoiding the feature positioning and detailing labor. Becomes a much bigger deal as feature size increases.

    I've used a few resin printed patterns for my lost foam patterns. I pull a mold off them and use them to make waxes for the LF pattern. Draft is not required. The print detail and finish is usually exceptional and can be used as printed but there can be material compatibility issues. Most resin prints will require washing and UV post cure. I had to use Tin cured silicone for the molds because the printed resin inhibited the cure of platinum catalyzed silicones. I've tried sealing with lacquer and that didn't solve that problem.

    I can't say if they could be used directly in foundry sand, probably, but they may not be very durable. I would think they could be used on master patterns for pulling molds and reproductions with the same material compatibility caution. Not sure how they do with urethane but I'd think they would need at least the same care as any painted surface.

    It may not produce the aesthetics you're after, but printing the detail on a plaque that can be attached to the pattern is a good way to go because they can replaced. I've had several where I used the plaque method to imitate the old pattern shop metal tape part numbers attached with brads.

    Might be wise to farm one out to see how they satisfy your needs before making the investment.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
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  16. Tops

    Tops Silver Banner Member

    Tried again with a straight extrusion and then applied draft and fillets. Slower than a tapered extrusion but faster than doing it manually. Also played with a 3/4 section for the picture. I will need to see if home software has same capability. TOPS_FOSTER_INVENTOR_DRAFTED_FILLETS.jpg
     
  17. Rocketman

    Rocketman Silver Banner Member

    I use Fusion360 for my modelling and the drafting function is mediocre at best. For text I can usually get 80% of the lettering to draft properly... I have some workarounds for the ones that do not but it's not always surefire. It's a pain in the ass.
    However, done properly I can get *any* font or logo done.
    I've done some belt buckles with text/logo, and for some of these with too much detail to take the time to draft I use a an extrusion of 0.5mm and let an application of paint form the draft & fillet, and it has worked exceptionally well.

    Resin printers are inherently messy to work with, but the level of detail that can be achieved is not even in the same league as FDM. There is a learning curve to them but I found it is not as steep as FDM printing.
    I would recommend a printer with a Mono screen - prints are *significantly* faster than the older RGB screens. Personally I have a Elegoo Mars 2 Pro and have been using Elegoo ABS-Like resin. It has a strong odor but not overwhelming like it seems with some other resins, but I've not used those. Ventilation is key. Resin printers can be finicky with temperature, folks tend to put them in a garage or basement because of the odors, and when it gets cold the resin cures slower. Something to be aware of.
    Regardless I've had mine for a little over a year and it has proven to be an essential tool for my shop. It makes fine, detailed lettering and features for patterns that was not able to get with an FDM printer or even my CNC router.

    @Mach - yes the resin printers have an issue with the backside of the print. I've been able to work around it for most of my projects.
     
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  18. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    I was certain that I would get some good advice from various people if I posted my wish/intention to get into resin printing. And that expectation is being fulfilled. Thanks to all who have posted so far. I have also made contact with a couple people not on this forum who have some experience and are will to share it.

    Since I am getting the silicone/rigid urethane molding process going, I do not intend to use the printed resing (or filament) printed part directly in a working mold. I would convert the print to a molded urethane piece that would then be incorporated into either an existing wooden mold or into a urethane copy of the wooden mold --- a better overall option I think. I am pretty sure I am going to go this route as I am aware of enough good results and have enough need to warrant the learning curve inherent in a new-to-me technology. Being free of the tyrrany of searching out existing and limited letters from manufacturers would be wonderful.

    Is it clear that there are other small printers that should definitely be preferred over the
    PHROZEN Sonic Mini UV Photocuring LCD Resin 3D Printer?

    Denis
     
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  19. HT1

    HT1 Gold Banner Member

    Ok please remember some fonts will not work with draft ESPECIALLY really small stuff , I have a guy that does some 3D work for me , and though he got draft really early on, he really had trouble with some of the things that are going to be issues , and some fonts are just a NO GO, the triangle in the middle of an A is a very common issue , Sharp faced gothic gives the absolute most draft possible 45Degrees, thats why is has been the go to for pattern letters forever, also, its easy to carve the originals , a stone carver carved the letters in reverse, and then they where filled with Lead


    V/r HT1
     
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  20. Smoking Shoe

    Smoking Shoe Silver

    The little 3018s are pretty much toys but should make the letters you need. More work to assemble than an Ender printer.
    With some upgrades they can do a pretty decent job - for the money and time invested.

    edit:
    Never used their filament but good filament is the key to good prints. I have an Ender 3.
    Considered entry level, but it has done everything I've needed straight from the box - with good PETG/PLA/ABS filament. 3D printing can be as much of a learning curve as casting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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