A drill press I bought a while back has a shaft that is out of round by about 4 to 5 thousandths. If I buy a Jacob's #3 taper and install it will that fix the issue or do you think the bearings are damaged in some way causing the shaft (taper) to spin out of round? Can I install a different taper into the machine to accommodate other chucks or use an adapter?
Your drill press looks similar to mine. If you took measurements on the inside of the taper and are reading 4-5 thousands, I think another chuck will not solve the problem. Sometimes the chuck needs cleaning if the drive shaft is straight.
It could be the shaft is bent, the chuck could be damaged, bearings, or perhaps something else. If you have a dial indicator, toss it up there and measure all the surfaces you can, bump the chuck out and indicate on the bore too. That should get you started finding where the problem lies. Once you've isolated where the problem is, you can see what it will take to remediate it.
Where are you measuring the out of roundness?, you'd have to remove the chuck and use a dial indicator directly on the chuck taper to get an accurate figure. The chuck is easily going to introduce several thou, especially if a few drills have spun in the jaws over the years. I rebuilt a similar vintage Taiwanese drill, it was built much better than modern versions with a cast iron column over 1/2" wall thickness versus the modern thin wall steel tube of today. Short of finding a morse taper 2 version of the spindle, I think you're stuck with it until you can score another drill press.
Yes the 4 to 5 thou was measured without the chuck on. It is directly from the shaft which I think is called the Jacobs #3 taper? I don't know for sure without dissembling the drill if the shaft is bent or something else is wrong. But I'm guessing the shaft is bent. If I get the taper (shaft?) out is that easy to replace or tricky to remove? Can I buy a different shaft and have it fit or must it take the #3? They seem to sell a lot of different combos of Jacob's to other fittings.
Terminology is a funny thing. If you're used to calling a part by one name and someone calls it by another, you're never 100% sure what that person is talking about. I get the impression you've removed the chuck from the arbor rather than removed the arbor (and chuck) from the spindle bore. So if by "shaft", you mean "arbor", it's usually easy to replace once you know the tapers on both ends. Or replace both chuck and arbor to eliminate the guess work. https://www.kbctools.ca/products/WORK HOLDING/DRILL CHUCKS @@26 ARBORS/DRILL CHUCK ARBORS/4310.aspx Typically, to remove the arbor you put the spindle at it's lowest setting and this exposes a slot in the side. There is a triangular wedge tool that gets inserted here and a little rap will pop the arbor out. Raise the table and put a wood block on it such that the arbor/chuck can only drop 1/2" or so...doesn't do them any good to hit the floor. Al
Hi Zappins I will have to keep this one short but I think this manual might help. Owner's Manual & Safety Instructions - Harbor Freight Tools https://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/39000-39999/39955.pdf The adapter is most likely a No.3 Morris to a Jacobs. The Morris is the part that goes into the arbor of the drill press and the Jacobs is the part going into the chuck. The size and design of the chuck determines the Jacobs tapper and was designed by Jacobs chucks becoming an industrial standard. The Morris tapper was designed as a precision tapper for machinery often used on drill bits and collets. If used with a flat tang on the end. It is set by pressure and is kept from rotation by the tang. If it is used as a collet or with a draw BAR. It is pulled into the tapper and rotation is stopped by pressure on the side wall of the tapper. All Morris tapers are for all practical purposes 3 degrees. In actuality it is very close to but just under 3 degrees. Joe
I was thinking the same thing Al. Another possibility for excessive run out is a poorly made arbor. Given that it's an import, it's also possible someone has installed an arbor with a taper that is close but incorrect on either the chuck or spindle side. You can pretty much expect a couple thousandths run out in an inexpensive drill press and chuck but .004-.005 is a little excessive. The chuck itself could be the primary culprit but not if you are measuring the run out on the spindle bore. Where you are measuring is the first clarification required. Also, there could be excessive clearance in the bore that guides the quill. If you grab the chuck can you move it around and does it get worse as you extend the quill. This is bearing and quill clearance in its bore. For the latter there is usually a quill clamp and tightening that up a little bit can be a megshift way of improving that play. Lastly, and again given it's an import, there may just collectively be that much run out from machining tolerances and bearing clearance. Best, Kelly
That amount of runout might not really be of great importance for a drill press. Using a spotting drill to locate holes and careful technique can render runout a non-issue. I assume you have read up on or been mentored on good technique concerning drill press operation. Spending a lot of time trying to optimize runout in a relatively low end (no offense intended) drill press might not gain you as much as learning to compensate for its inherent weaknesses. Denis
Usually a drill like that has a No.2 Morse taper and at first I thought this drill did too, but a closer look at the drill's data plate show's it only has a Jacobs No.3 male taper. I have a few smaller drills like this, but this is the first time I've seen a larger drill made this way, it's a bit less useful than having a Morse taper socket in the spindle. Kelly is correct and there's likely some movement of the quill in the casting, it's rare to see a drill press that doesn't have this problem. You could try locking the quill if it has that adjustment and measuring the taper runout again. I've re-sleeved the bore and re-ground the quill to get a good fit on a couple of drill presses. Another mod is to make some eccentric bronze bushes for the pinion gear that moves the quill up and down: that lets you adjust the meshing of the pinion to the rack of the quill. With a decent meshing of the rack and pinion you can eliminate a lot of chatter especially when countersinking: the difference is night and day. I'd be inclined to pull the spindle apart and replace the bearings first and see if that helps things. NSK bearings sell a rubber seal bearing with tighter precision/clearances than normal called a "CM" (clearance motor) so you could pick up a few microns more accuracy that way. It'd take some serious abuse to bend a drill spindle in the first place, if new spindle bearings don't help then you'd be looking at some sort of Heath Robinson setup to grind the taper in situ to true it up. Edit: Be careful pulling the spindle apart, there may be a nut on the spindle to retain the bearings, on my similar Taiwanese drill it's a left hand thread. I bought my drill for $20 in pieces as someone pulled it apart and lost the left hand nut.
I will have to call on this one Mark. Although a lot of light drill presses would use a female number 2 Jacobs to a male Morris taper that fit the chuck. In no instance is a Morris male taper fit to a drill chuck. As can be seen from the chart below. The Morris taper would be close to or even longer than the chuck is. The manual I posted covers this model drill press and clearly shows a taper adapter that adapts a longer taper “ Morris No.3" as indicated on the machine identification plate to a shorter taper Morris number? The Morris taper will be determined by the chuck used. Not by the drill press arbor bore. I have a Jacobs supper bearing chuck No.18 N, 3/4 inch that I will be ordering a R8 to a Jacobs No.4 on the bench in front of me now. The bore at the large end is 1.125 inch wide and even with the clearance depth 1.85 inches deep. I have the utmost respect for those who are machinist. Ido not claim to be one but I can hold my own when it comes to cutting a tapper, thread , shaft, or gear. I have grown up on analog machines. Without wanting to brag. I do maintain a nice home shop. At this time you would not know it to look and I would not want anyone to see my shop in its present condition. I was in the process of the once a year cleaning and some floor and lighting repairs when a family member fell ill. The shop will not be up and running again for at least a week or 2 but the cleaning and lighting will be worth it. I hate the annual deep cleaning especially this year with the family health issue. I am happy to say things are looking very good in this case and as things progress I will say more on this subject. Joe JACOBS TAPERS JACOBS LARGE SMALL TAPER# DIAMETER DIAMETER LENGTH --------------------------------------- 0 .25000" .22844 .43750 1 .38400 .33341 .65625 2 .55900 .48764 .87500 2 short .54880 .48764 .75000 3 .81100 .74610 1.21875 4 1.12400 1.03720 1.65625 5 1.41300 1.31611 1.87500 6 .67600 .62409 1.00000 33 .62401 .56051 1.00000 --------------------------------------- MORSE TAPERS LARGE SMALL MORSE DIAMETER DIAMETER TAPER# (A) (B) LENGTH ---------------------------------------
The drill's own data plate says it has a Jacobs No.3 spindle, I suppose it could be implemented with a female Morse 2 taper on the spindle and then a Morse 2 to Jacobs 3 adaptor but you'd think it would then be labelled as a Morse 2 spindle. Who knows, weirder things have happened.
...or, the spindle just has a Jacobs #3 snout and no tapered bore at all. Zap needs to chime in with what he has. Best, Kelly
I just had a brain fart and convinved myself I'd been wrong calling it a Morse taper for decades, Joe, is that auto correct making your posts call it a'morris taper?' ?
Yes it was Peedee! I did not ketch that as I also did not ketch that I did not poste a chart for the Morse taper. I apologize to those on the thread. I have had a lot on my mind. My grand daughter came through the surgery with flying colors. Things are a looking up for her. She has had a rough rode on this one beginning at 3 years of age. She is now 15. I still have a bit of pause just saying it. It was the big C. At its worst a very dark stage 4. She stood to long at the edge for any one. Let alone a child. Life will forever be changed for her but we all have a very guarded optimism that this will be the last of it. She will live a long productive life. We helped rase her through what I can only think and hope was the worst of it. She has been one for the books. Her treatments and follow up has set a new standard for treating this particular cancer. She is quite a tough little girl that is becoming quite a tough little lady. With the last curve that was thrown. I am optimistic but will say they have got it! This is enough said about this curse of the human race. I will speak of it no more. Again I apologize for some of my short, incomplete, poorly read or just whiney post. I will try to do better in the future. Here is a chart of a Morse not Morris taper. Taper Large End Small End Length Taper/ Foot Taper/ Inch Angle From Center #0 0.3561 0.2520 2.00 .6246 .0521 1.4908 #1 0.4750 0.3690 2.13 .5986 .0499 1.4287 #2 0.7000 0.5720 2.56 .5994 .0500 1.4307 #3 0.9380 0.7780 3.19 .6024 .0502 1.4377 #4 1.2310 1.0200 4.06 .6233 .0519 1.4876 #4-1/2 1.5000 1.2660 4.50 .6240 .0520 1.4894 #5 1.7480 1.4750 5.19 .6315 .0526 1.5073 #6 2.4940 2.1160 7.25 .6257 .0521 1.4933 #7 3.2700 2.7500 10.00 .6240 .0520 1.4894 Joe
Best wishes to your grand daughter Joe, I wasn't being critical, I was just amused that I was questioning myself!
Thank you Peedee. She is home now and doing quite well. We are cautious in saying that we think this will be the last of this dreaded disease for her. I did not think any thing critical at all in your post. I am very glad you caught it. I missed it entirely when auto correct changed it. It is funny how when something like that sticks in a persons mind. You just read it and never associate it even though it is right in front of you. I have been very absent minded the last few months with everything going on. The situation has caused a lot of lost sleep resulting in me making some very poorly conceived post. Things are looking up for her. I hope to get back on track with a much longer fuse and a bit more thought before posting in the future. All the test and biopsy were very encouraging. Fingers crossed and holding our breath. She has beat it. Thanks to all that have expressed concern and also to those who have not mentioned it. Those here on The home foundry are a great bunch of guys. I am sure that all are pulling for her. Joe
Sorry for the delayed reply. I appreciate the help on this. Hopefully this video clarifies whats going on. I've been sick with a cold and felt quite out of it too. joe, I sympathize. Any major surgery or treatment especially with life and limb at risk is a very big emotional strain on everyone in the family. I am happy things are going well and I will keep her in my thoughts.
It's got quite a few marks on the taper like it's been gripped with pump pliers and then sanded or filed smooth again with the spindle shaft spinning, that would be enough to cause the runout problems you see. How much can you rock the spindle shaft without turning it?. To remove the quill and spindle assembly you'd have to remove the pinion shaft, the grub screw depth stops and let the return spring off without the spring taking your eyes out. The quill is a cast iron cylinder with two ball bearings and the spindle shaft, once it's out you can remove the spindle and get it checked for straightness and maybe re-ground to center the taper.
I'll check tomorrow but if memory serves there isn't much lateral movement when tugged, but it does have play vertically. Sounds like quite the job to fix it. Hmm.
