Another keg furnace

I am back! One might call me a nut for giving it all away but now I feel truly retired. I gave this house to the grand children in a living estate. The other house and shop are now the total responsibility of my son. My wife now controls the finances. To some this would sound foolish. To me it is freedom.
I still have free rain of the shop but none of the worries. This will be interesting to see how my son runs the shop and an educational exercise for the wife.
I have several self imposed rules that hinder things a bit. One is now that my son is responsible for the shop. I will not be putting the foundry in the storage room and will have to come up with a home for it. That leaves me with the complications of what to use for a building?
I do have somewhat of a plan. I have a 10 foot fiberglass satellite dish that is looking more and more like a round barn type of shed. I also have quite a bit of thin walled 1.5 inch tubing and a lot of scrap corrugated metal. This build will be the subject of a new thread eventually I have the plans in my head to build a 10 foot octagon sided building for almost nothing.
As of late I have been working on a burner with a siphon nozzle. I have not fired it yet. Wish me luck. The blower I am using is a very well made 1950s cast iron squirrel cage type that puts out a lot of air with almost no noise. The output pipe I.D. of the blower is only .125 inch larger than the burner pipe. It slides in without much air leakage. I have only tested the siphon nozzle
with the air from a hobby air gun compressor. It worked very well but only siphon >.75 G.P.H.
I think if I put a little pressure on the fuel it should work at several G.P.H.

Joe

 

I was thinking of a square corrugated iron building with four corner posts where the four walls are hinged at the top so they can open up like petals and be propped up with a stick to provide some shade around the roof area and allow breezes and ventilation when running the furnace, yet allow the structure to be closed and secure when not in use. You could do that with an octagon too and get the extra space when the walls/petals are open.

 

I and several others on the forum are using the same .75 GPH Hago nozzle. The simplest way to increase its GPH is to just buy a 20 dollar 12v automotive fuel pump that puts out 7 to 10 PSI. Use 25 to 30 pounds of air to atomize your fuel and add a little (does not take much) combustion air and you will be able to burn 3 GPH. That seems to be about right for the average burner most folks seem to use.

You can also hoist your fuel tank to pressurize the fuel supply, but that is impractical in practice---I tried that.

Denis

 

It does my heart good to see your post above, Joe.

Pete

 

Thank you for the suggestion on the fuel pump. I had not thought of that. I was going to experiment with air pressure in the fuel vessel. I don’t like that idea to much as it is a spill / fire hazard. Eventually I plan on metering the fuel with a very small gear pump and a DC motor. I am looking for the right motor gear box. I had considered an automotive window motor but after looking a couple over it was obvious that they are not built for constant service.

Thanks Pete! It was a long time coming and after a couple of brushes with death. I realized that my adult 30 year old son and wife depend and expect me to do everything. They are ill equipped to take over. Sink or swim. This is the best way I have of teaching them the ropes. That coupled with frustration drove me to a clan start. I can now say. I am retired with not a care in the world!

I still have full use of the shop but I am now the silent partner. My son will run the day to day affairs. With this in mind. It would not be right to hand him the rains and then use the storage room of the shop for a foundry. There are 4 out buildings other than the main shop and house but all 4 are made of wood. This would be a fire waiting to happen, It would also take away from the shop.
I have been thinking of a building for the foundry but had the shop to fall back on. The shop was built with hot work in mind. It has walls that are cinder block 5 high from the cement floor before going to a wood conventional construction.
The new building will be posted as it goes up. Any help with suggestions for the floor layout will be greatly appreciated.

One thing I had not considered was the demand for the type services I am skilled in. I put the word out. I was available for short service calls. Just to make some spending money. Now I am first called for the local news paper and have had several interested. If I was younger I could clean up.

Joe

 

I was out to the shop for a short time the other day and started on the vertical post to hold up the dish. I filed the tubing with ready mix. Fit the ends with the bolts shown in the pictures.
The bolts are 5/8 X 6 inch. The nuts will be removed after the cement fully sets up. I turned up to show my ugly attempt at welding on .035 tubing with a stick.
I have been working on several different foundry accessories as I am collecting parts and working on the different projects related to the foundry as time allows. The shop is 13 miles from this house so I don’t make it out as often as I would like. At this time I am working on the burner, fuel reservoir, furnace cart with lifting assembly and building. I also have a H.F. cement mixer with a bad original motor. To be used for a muller.
The cement mixer brings up a question. How much horsepower would be best? I have motors up to 1.5 Hp.
In the picture of the fuel tank is A small bronze positive displacement pump. As of now I have not had any luck finding a small motor with a gear reduction. I need something between 75 and 100 R.P.M. The filter is a standard 10 micron filter. The one in the picture is bad but I have several new on the shelf. I plan on installing a copper line up a few inches from the bottom of the fuel tank.
For now things are going a bit slow however they are coming together. I still have a lot to do but by working on whatever I can find materials for at this time. I have been able to keep things going, at least a few, > 10 hours a week.
The bolts that are taped in the cement filled pipes all stayed straight but several of the bolts on the other end are a bit crooked. This wont hurt anything although I should have did better.
Joe

 

The cement mixer brings up a question. How much horsepower would be best,
anyone?

 

Thank you Jeff
It is there larger 3.5 cubic foot mixer with the original China made 1/3 HP motor. The motor has gone bad. This motor was to small for this application and would over heat when mixing more than a very small amount of cement.
Joe

 

As with almost everything, there are surprises. I had originally found the 1/6 Hp motor and gear box in my shed. This was from a long forgot project but the ratio of 1/20 on a 1600 R.P.M. motor gave me the 80 R.P.M. maximum that I needed.
This was to good to pass. So I cobbled together the pump stand and welded the mount down. Found a mismatched Love-Joy the smaller spider was drilled. The larger ole, shimmed and drilled to the correct size. All worked well when I plugged in the motor for a test! Things did not go so well when I hooked up the speed controller. I had not considered this motor had a start coil and run coils. It did not play well with the speed controller at all.
This reminded me of a post Zappins had where he had mentioned a treadmill motor that he might use on a lath. It just so happens that in the eternal pile of salvage goods. I have one.
The first problem is the speed controller has no controller. When the old treadmill was put out to pasture the head was removed. Thankfully the only part in the head was a 5 K ohm potentiometer with a big plastic knob on it. That is easily replaced. So I found my bucket of potentiometer and hooked it up. It worked! I do see why they have a flywheel. At very slow speed the motor will stall and is very jerky with rather high torque pulses. Once above a couple of hundred R.P.M. it looks to be running very smoothly and the control works very well with the exception of when you turn the potentiometer up or down. The motor is slow to respond. I suspect this is due to the controller being for a tried mill where sudden changes would not be desired. The delay should be no problem I will be running it at 800 R.P.M. +/- 200 R.P.M.
I have cut the original mount down to match center to center height on a standard electric motor mount.
This is where I am now with the fuel pump system. This is a positive displacement pump rated at 100 p.s.i. It is driven by a 1+ Hp. Motor through a 20/1 gear box. Without doing the math I am guessing that this drive is 100 X what is needed. It started out so easy. Now I will need a pressure relief valve. Never let a dad idea die easily!
Thanks to those that are experimenting with the siphon nozzle especially Pat for his effort, research into nozzle design. I decided to go full on under $20 made in china siphon nozzle. The nozzle is something I find quite impressive. I did very little testing but could see the potential. It ran 1.5 G.P.H. of fine mist with a small air brush compressor.
I think I should be able to light the furnace at a low fuel rate “1.5 G.P.M.” ? As it gets hot bring the fuel flow rate up to what is wanted correcting the atmosphere with the blower?
What do you guys think? The idea is that as the furnace gets hot digger droplets are acceptable.
It will be interesting to see what happens to the spray from the nozzle when it is increased from 1.5 to 6 g.p.m. without increasing the compered air.
The next question will be viscosity. Should I heat the oil? When I was a much younger man. I worked with a home DIY incinerator boiler that burnt everything including all trash oil.
I found out a few things about the sludge we are about to burn.
1 Is that if it if over 350 degrees or so. It will puddle and burn.
2 The hotter it is the easier it is to burn. I was getting around a 90% ignition rate with a spark alone by keeping the oil around 200 degrees.
3 It will scorch! This was my biggest nozzle clogging problem. My experience was somewhat different. I built a boiler that sprayed hot oil into a large low temperature >212 degrees chamber.
Those here are building furnaces that when hot will burn the oil that gets inside.

The selfe is me. My grand son just had his 12th birth day and what do you think he wants?
A secret lair. THE “BUD” CAVE. His nick name is Bud. He lives in the house out at the shop. He has as a back room ( game room ) that at one time was an attached garage turned apartment turned back into very large house now attached to his bed room. We drilled the walls today for his security cameras and took measurements for the secret book shelf door to THE “BUD” CAVE
The rather plastic night vision I am wearing actually works. We got it at the good will for a couple of $$ a few years back. It would not focus on anything unless it was within an inch or 2.
I took it apart and the plastic gears were striped so I set the lens to infinite and glued it there.
It is just a very cheep camera and lcd screen. In the dark it has a light sensor that turns on infrared
lighting the eye can not see.... So Bud is off in 00 land with even more secret stuff than we could have imagined when we were 12.
The first thing that caught his eye more than anything at his birthday was a d.v.r. I had went to a yard sale and could not resist 3 brand new old stock cameras with cables for $5. When I brought them home I did not have a d.v.r. , so $25 later on amazon I have one. I did get it to show wonderfully detailed color video and very good night vision. I did not figure out the recording nor did I try. It has an internet address and can be accessed through a modem. All for $25.
Now it is to placed in THE “BUD” CAVE.
Things are actually moving rather slowly but they are moving. I have had a bad cold so the promises were left lately. Putting in the security system cameras with a cold, baa humbug. If you are going to put in security cameras. You just must have a secret entrance.



Rusty Shackelford

What i thought would work

2 choices
the choice has been made



The one above shows the frame that must be cut from a line across the center of the circle = to center of shaft to surface of the mount.
In this case it is 3 inches. I took the easy way out. I cut almost all the waste off with the band saw and then finished the cut in e mill. It could have been accomplished just as accurately with hand tools



The one below shows the 2 shafts pointing end to end. I apologize for not taking pictures of the 2 ends after cutting

The one above shows a 5 K ohm resistor. $2 - $5.



The one below is me testing the night vision.

 

The night vision thing (apparatus) is down right cyclopian, and would be very useful when answering the door on Halloween, or when some pesky salesman or hyper-proselytizing religious person shows up at the front door.
I think I will print out your photo and hang it on the front door with big letters that say "WELCOME.....WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU SO WE CAN TRANSPORT UP !".
The downside to hanging your photo is that some of these folks may come back with some sort of alien-speak, such as "Hello Thorlon, we haven't seen you since planet Xzotorp".
At that point it may be best to make a run for the bunker, or better yet the Bud cave (best to use a substantial lock on the door, and don't mention the cave's existence to any alien-types).

Edit:
If you added a couple of red lasers (one either side), and some dry ice smoke at Halloween, you could really scare the sh-t out of some people when you open the door, especially if you had some creepy music playing in the background, like the sound effects from the movie "War of the Worlds".
See 0:35 for how it should be done:

Should you attempt this, please be sure to take a video and share it with us.

I think my concrete mixer uses a 1/2 hp motor.
It was quite a bit smaller than I expected, but it does have a gear drive, and runs pretty slow, so not much hp is required.

I have a DC motor just like that with a shorted controller.
I don't like throwing motors away so it sits until I can find a simple controller for it.

A quick review of oil burner motors on ebay shows many at 1/8 hp, 1/7 hp, 1/6 hp, on up to 1/4 hp and 1/3 hp.
And these motors power the fan also, so I think the 1/3 hp motor I got is way oversized.
I think something between 1/8 hp and 1/4 hp would be sufficient, but like I mentioned better a little oversized than too small and overheating.
The pump will only use the hp it requires for the load, so a 1 hp motor driving a load of 1/8 hp or less will only use 1/8 hp of load.

A 1 hp 1-ph motor at 120v at rated load will draw about 16 amps, but if used to power a fuel pump, it will only draw a small fraction of that current.

I am not sure if the pump I bought has a pressure relief valve or not.
I am still studying pressurized fuel pump systems and don't quite have a schematic mapped out yet, although I will have a supply and a return line.

I would guess this would work.
I have not actually tried to reduce atomization air with a fully hot furnace (I have only tried this with a furnace/burner that has just been lit), but judging from how well a drip-style burner works, I would say there is a wide latitude in the droplet/drop sizes that a fully hot furnace can vaporize and burn.
I have noticed that as some have mentioned, the drip-style burners can have a slightly uneven burn with varying amounts of flame coming out the lid opening, due to large drops of fuel shearing off the end of the burner drip delivery tube. The slight unevenness does not seem to present any problems as far as melting metal.

A siphon nozzle burner that is operated with zero compressed air does seem to concentrate the fuel into a solid stream, and that is no doubt detrimental to it breaking up into droplets.
A siphon nozzle with enough compressed air to break the fuel up into drops/droplets at least as small as a drip-style burner should work equally as well as drip-style burner.

I know myford has used a heater for his oil, but my philosophy on heating the fuel oil is same as my philosophy on everything else (using flux, etc.), ie: don't do anything that is not required, else you are doing things for no logical reason or purpose.
I have easily lit a diesel fueled siphon nozzle burner down to at least 25F and the burner lights and works well, and it would probably operate at a much lower temperature than that.
For heavier oils and perhaps waste oil (I have not tried waste oil yet), a certain amount of either preheating or mixing with a percentage of diesel may be required for an easy self-light without propane preheat, especially in cold weather.
If the oil viscosity is too low, you will not get the desired flow rate through the nozzle, and so you may have to preheat regardless of whether a propane preheat is required or not.

Heating the heavier oils may allow you to light them without using propane preheat first, if you can get the oil up close to its flash point.
If I start using heavier oils, I will use a 3-way valve and start on diesel for preheat, then switch over to the heavier oil once the furnace is hot.
I don't like handling propane or having to deal with the bottles that cannot be refilled during mid-melt, have to be exchanged, etc.

I have not had any sludging problems when using diesel, but I generally turn by blower back on after I remove the crucible from the furnace so that the tip of the nozzle does not bake on the fuel in a hard varnish-like coating.
Clean fuel and a good fuel filter is a must with a siphon nozzle, else the nozzle will clog.

But I am confused a bit since you mention a siphon-nozzle with compressed air, but then your photo shows a fuel pump, which uses a different nozzle than a siphon nozzle, although both will screw into the same adapter, so you will have to clarify that.

 

SIPHON-NOZZLE

As best I understand it, the two typical types of fuel nozzles are the air-atomization type (siphon nozzle) which use compressed air for atomization of the fuel, and below is a schematic and section for a siphon nozzle arrangement.

The siphon nozzle operates in a similar fashion to a paint sprayer.

Fuel flow can be controlled by a needle valve in the fuel line, varying the compressed air pressure (I don't recommend this and prefer a fixed compressed air pressure of 30 psi), and by varying the pressure on the fuel tank if you choose to operate a pressurized fuel tank (low pressure on the fuel tank, perhaps 15 psi).

The fuel flow for a siphon nozzle can be varied by a range of 3:1 from the nozzle rating while maintaining good atomization, per Delavan literature.

 

PRESSURE-ATOMIZATION NOZZLE - SIMPLEX MODE (NO BYPASS)

The second typical fuel nozzle type is the pressure-atomization type, and they operate on the same principle as a perfume sprayer, ie: they use pressure from a pump to force fuel through a fine nozzle, and the pressure forces the fuel to break up into droplets. No compressed air is used with the pressure-atomization nozzles.

Below is a schematic for the pressure nozzle system, and the nozzle typically screws into the same adapter, but rather than using compressed air, oil is fed into the back of the adapter at a high pressure (perhaps 100-150 psi).
The hole in the side of the adapter may or may not be used as an oil-return line.
For full output, the hole in the side of the nozzle is plugged, and the nozzle is operated in simplex mode with no oil returning to the fuel tank, and no adjustment allowed on the fuel flow other than perhaps adjusting the pump pressure.

It should be noted that the siphon nozzle uses an 0-ring (unless you specifically design a burner without one as I did), and the pressure-atomization nozzle does not use an o-ring.
The pressure nozzle does not need an o-ring because there is no compressed air to be kept separate from the oil.

 

PRESSURE-ATOMIZATION NOZZLE - BYPASS OR RETURN FLOW MODE

The schematic for the pressure-atomization nozzle used in bypass (also called return-flow) mode is the same as above but the return flow line is used, and a valve is used to control the amount of fuel flowing back to the fuel tank. As the fuel flow back to the fuel tank is increased, the fuel flow delivered out the end of the nozzle is proportionally (direct proportion) decreased.

Typically a constant fuel pump pressure is used to supply the nozzle.
The fuel flow rate for a bypass-mode pressure nozzle can be as high as 10:1 from the nominal flow rating of the nozzle with good atomization, although this is normally limited to a 3:1 ratio by the limits of combustion air supply systems used with burners.

This is the mode I intend to use for my pressure-atomization burner arrangement, and will probably use a needle valve in the bypass line.

.

 

Yes the night vision thing is just too much fun. With the appearance of total darkens. Using the infrared at a distance of 50 foot across the shop.
I could still plainly see the outlines of tools on the wall. We thought our green right angle flashlight equipped with the special blue plastic lense that in a dark room if you looked real close exposed the not so invisible ink along with a compass that sort of worked was the best.
On the siphon nozzle. Some on the form are advocating great success of putting pressure on the fuel to the nozzle increasing flow. In this case. The nozzle is no longer being used as a siphon.
The over kill gearbox / motor and pump will be part of an eventual fuel system that sucks the oil out of storage, through a filter to the pump that meters the fuel and acts as a check valve when off. It should be dependable.

Joe

 

I agree, but note that compressed air is still being used for atomization.
It should also be noted that the horsepower required to push 3 gal/hr through a siphon nozzle is very small, perhaps 1/128 hp or less (an aquarium air pump can be used for that).

I think you will get it sorted out shortly when you get some equipment running and can do some testing.

.

 

I think I might be misunderstood in what the motor pump is actually doing.
It is there as a consistent oil delivery source for the siphon nozzle. The oil will then be atomized by air from a compressor. The pressurized oil from the pump will never go over a few pounds unless the nozzle clogs. In this case without a proper relief valve damage would occur. The pump oil pressure in no way expected to do the job of atomization. I expect as the pump delivers more oil the droplet size will increase even though the pressure will increase proportionally.
The actual power to turn the pump is on the order of 1 inch pound. The colossi I have turning it is my incarnation of a Rube Goldberg machine. It started as I can have that little pump attached to that thing in just a couple of ... and ended with. It will make a nice small hoist or I might put it on that old belt driven band saw I have hated for years... when I find the right gear box / motor combination.

 

Melterskelter has mentioned how he uses a fuel pump to supply oil to his siphon nozzle, but I can't say I am familiar with exactly how he does that.
But it does seem to work well for him.

I prefer to put 15 psi of air pressure on the fuel tank instead of using a fuel pump, but this assumes that you have a fuel tank that can take pressure.
I also use a 30 psi safety valve to prevent over-pressuring the fuel tank.

For a siphon nozzle burner, I prefer to have the air compressor provide air for the nozzle and for the fuel tank, and thus only have one device running to do two things.
And using air pressure on the fuel tank allows you to easily change the fuel flow by slightly increasing or decreasing the fuel tank pressure, but of course the ultimate fuel flow through the nozzle is controlled by the needle valve.

There are many ways to slice bread, and they all work, so it is really whatever your personal preferences are, and often it amounts to what equipment you happen to have on hand.

I will have to think about that one; I am not sure if I have played around with that or not, so can't agree or disagree. Only testing will tell the story.

.

 

They way I use a fuel pump is very simple. I bought a 12v generic 7-9 pound automotive fuel pump and simply inserted it in my fuel line between the fuel tank (Jerry can) and siphon nozzle. By doing so I was able to essentially double my fuel burn rate and reduce melt times by 1/3rd. I also put an inexpensive pressure gauge in the line after the pump. It reads a steady 9 pounds pressure.

I am using a Hago .75gph nozzle at 2.5 to 3 gph. The optimal compressed air pressure is yet to be determined but is somewhere around 22 to 25 pounds. Too much compressed air and fuel flow diminishes.

Denis

Edit: If the supplied fuel pressure is significantly greater than 9 pounds, then the optimal compressed air pressure may be somewhat greater. But I have seen too much compressed air actually drive fuel backwards. So, one has to be diligent about determining optimal pressures.

 

I do like the idea of the fuel pump. It is a simple solution that solves several problems.
This contraption I have under construction will not work any better or worse than others methods. It will however give me a chance to measure the fuel at any time going into the furnace regardless of viscosity or air pressure. If this will prove out to be an asset is yet to be determined. It will give me information that makes little difference to a skilled operator with a working system but to a person new to oil. It cant hurt.
Joe