Glumpy burner + siphon nozzle.

Discussion in 'Burners and their construction' started by Ironsides, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. Ironsides

    Ironsides Silver

    I came across this interesting video on youtube. He uses a glumpy style burner with a siphon nozzle. I think that this burner has a bright future, it is very similar to the burner that Clarke (porositymaster) is using and his works really well for melting cast iron. The person who made this video is a great fan of glumpys youtube channel. He does mention that his burners cost $500 each so I pass on buying one and have go at making my own.


     
  2. _Jason

    _Jason Silver

    I am curious how the burner does not burn out the combustion chamber, though? Or does that become a consumable?
     
  3. PatJ

    PatJ Silver Banner Member

    The external combustion chamber burners that are made from steel do not last very long, and they can fail in a spectacular and dangerous way, spewing molten steel and flame in any direction depending on which part of the burner fails, and it will fail if made from steel.
    It is quite a hazard if you happen to be standing next to it when it fails, and anyone around it is also in danger.
    You can build one from stainless steeel, and it will last longer than mild steel, but it will still fail.

    I tried both the Glumpy-style burner (real name is Ursutz after the guy who invented that style), and a Usurtz with a Delavan siphon nozzle on its input, and the Ursutz with the siphon nozzle seemed to work better than the straight Ursutz, but you can toss the Ursutz part of the burner and just put the siphon nozzle straight into the furnace, and save yourself all the radiated heat, the problems with the steel degrading quickly, and the hazards of the steel failing suddently, and you can have excellent melt times using just a siphon nozzle burner.





    I know that porositymaster has successfully used an Ursutz-style burner for a long time, and with great success, he has also had problems with metal degradation, and some hazardous failures too.
    This is porositymaster's Ursutz in action.




    Ironically, the biggest problem with the Ursutz beside the metal degradation is the fact that if run at its maximum, it supposedly shortens crucible life to just a handful of melts, and so it has to be turned town to a lower output, which totally negates using it in the first place (in my opinion).

    If anyone believes in spending $500 on that burner, then I have some snake oil that I guarantee will cure any ailment that is known to mankind, and I will make 421 videos to prove how well the stuff works.

    Every notice how someone who has 421 videos, many of which are about burners, does not appear to ever have cast a single thing? So is it about metal casting/foundry stuff, or attempting to break the world record for the number of big-flame burner videos you can make?

    Not trying to be harsh in any way, but just pointing out things that may not be obvious to a beginner who could spend a lot of money on something that may not have even been used to melt metal, and something that may only last a very short time, and then fail in a dangerous manner.

    I have tried a number of burner styles including a Hybrid Burners naturally aspirated propane burner (nice burner, but it won't melt cast iron without adding some sort of blower), drip-style oil burners, Ursutz burners, hybrid Ursutz/siphon nozzle, dual siphon nozzles in a single large burner tube, large burners, small burners, etc.

    I have basically tossed every style burner I have ever built in the garbage can with the exception of the Delavan siphon nozzle burner running on diesel, and it starts instantly, every time, with instant full power without warmup, and with a pressurized fuel tank I never have to adjust the settings during the melt.
    My Delavan siphon nozzle burner has been the most consistent and reliable burner I have ever owned or used, and I never have problems with it, and I never adjust it during the melt.

    I also use my Hybrid Burners propane burner for small aluminum melts with my mini fire brick furnace, and it performs consistently.

    Everyone has their favorite burner style; its like automobiles; you have Chevy guys, Ford guys, Chrysler guys, etc. and they all insist that their car is the fastest and the best.
    And the great equalizer was the drag strip down the road where the bs was separated from the truth every Saturday.

    And the equalizer in the foundry world as far as oil burners for me is iron melts.
    How many have you done, and how quickly can you melt X amount of iron?
    It is not even worth discussing the KW output of your burner if you have never even attempted to melt iron, much less had a number of successful pours.

    Its like the car guys who say "My engine produces 600 hp".
    My response was always "Meet you at the track and lets see what you got".

    Edit:
    Chevy rules.......Ford drools........long live Chevy.........big block Chevy is king.......... (at least I am not opinionated)
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  4. Gippeto

    Gippeto Silver

    Were you planning to add a blower? Had a bit of grief trying to get a siphon nozzle running in my furnace with the lid closed...until I added extra combustion air. Quite possible you know something I don't though...so will be watching. :)

    Al
     
  5. PatJ

    PatJ Silver Banner Member

    For melting cast iron, I have always had to add combustion air, so I assume the burner in the first post would also need a blower in order to melt iron.
    Big flames in open air mean nothing when you are trying to melt iron.
    All that talk of large KW numbers is total fluff unless you just like to waste fuel burning weeds off your driveway or something.

    What I learned during six years of burner testing is as follows, and this applies to basically any burner used for a foundry:

    1. Less is more.
    I found out that 3 gallons of diesel per hour burns much hotter than 6 gal/hr or more.
    Forcing high rates of combustion air and fuel into a furnace just cools it.

    2. If the fuel air mixture is not adjusted correctly, then the flame temperature goes down, and you may not be able to melt metal at all, especially iron.

    3. Getting the correct atomization from a burner is critical to getting an efficient and hot burn.
    I have had some uninformed folks emphatically say that fuel atomization makes not difference at all, but I consider that statement absolute rubbish (as the Brits say).
    Whether your atomization is via a spray nozzle or the oil/fuel striking the hot furnace surface, getting the correct atomization is critical to foundry work.
    The worse the atomization process, the colder the burn will be.
    If a fuel does not atomize enough, then there is not enough surface area on the fuel for it to properly mix with the oxygen in the air and combust for maximum heat output.

    4. To get a good burn with a foundry burner, you need to know how much fuel you are inputting, and also know how much air to add to that amount of fuel in order to get an optimum burn.
    If you don't know these values and can't figure them out, you will not get a consistent burn, and may have all sorts of trouble melting metal.

    5. Many people use gravity-fed fuel systems, and the heat output of your burner will always vary with the fuel level in your tank, and you may have to adjust the burner as the fuel level changes.
    To eliminate this hassle, pressurize your fuel tank with 15 psi compressed air, with a 30 psi pressure safety release valve.

    One trick I learned rather by accident was to do burner tuning experiments at night in complete darkness (it gets very hot in the south during the summer, and the last thing you want to do is test burners in direct sunlight on a 110F day with 90% humidity, unless you are a masochistic type and into the heat stroke thing).
    Complete darkness makes it much easier to determine whether your burner is getting the furnace interior to its maximum heat (brilliance), and that is how I finally learned to tune a burner for something close to an optimum burn with a maximum temperature INSIDE the furnace.

    Those who think they can throw together a burner and make it work without understanding how to optimize fuel and combustion air flows are in for a lot of disappointment, and it is those folks who often seem to complain ad nauseam about one type of burner or another.
    There are several types of burners that work well (propane, drip-style, siphon-nozzle); you just have to understand the basics of tuning a burner to melt metal in a furnace.
    An Ursutz burner made from steel can be made to work well if you know how to do that, but I would not use a burner type that is known to be hazardous when it gets thin walls.

    Edit:
    The original magazine article about the Ursutz burner shows it being made from refractory, but I just can't wrap my head around why someone would build a big, heavy, costly, bulky burner from refractory when you can make one that weighs perhaps 5 lbs and works perfectly without degradation.
    Speaking of degradation, if you don't seal the burner tube to the tuyere, you will overheat and degrade your burner tube in very short order, and this is due to the hot combustion gasses blowing out the tuyere around the burner tube, since the furnace is being pressurized by a blower usually.

    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  6. Jason

    Jason Silver Banner Member

    Glumpy... There is a name I haven't heard in awhile.. Maybe Zap can stop and say hi to him? He was good entertainment, but I bet his neighbors dont share the same feelings.
     
  7. PatJ

    PatJ Silver Banner Member

    Glumpy is still out there in y-tube land, but he does not do burner videos anymore.
    Not sure why; perhaps he got bored with them.

    Edit:
    His last burner video was titled "Pouring Molten Aluminum on My Balls".
    Perhaps he finally did himself in, or burnt his balls off or something.
    Crazy things happen in y-tube videos you know.

    .
     
  8. Jason

    Jason Silver Banner Member

    OMG...

     
  9. Ironsides

    Ironsides Silver

    Hmmmm I don't count how many melts I have done but how many tons per year I melt. As for melting speed (iron) you cannot say it is at a snails pace.
     
  10. PatJ

    PatJ Silver Banner Member

    Yes I understand, but let me rephrase that, "How many iron pours have the people with 400 (+) burner videos (I guess they are not all burner videos) and almost 3 millions of views done?".
    Looks like zero to me, and my only point is that does anyone consider it a good idea to spend $500 on a burner that may not have been used for iron work?

    Not to rain on people's parade and be all negative, but the $500 struck me as a bit outrageous, all things considered.
    Maybe its just me.
    Does this strike anyone else as a bit odd?
    Perhaps I am misreading it and these burners are not intended for foundry use, but rather for industrial uses.

    Edit:
    His website says "These waste oil burner nozzles and combusters can be used in forges ,foundries and Kilns".
    Here is a video of a "571 KW" oil burner, which is over 12 gallons per hour of oil.
    It does appear to put out a ton of heat, but I would really like to see someone using it on a furnace to melt iron.
    The sheet steel housing will not last long when operating red hot like that.


    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  11. PatJ

    PatJ Silver Banner Member

    This is very similar to the burner that Clarke was using.
    You may have not seen his most recent burner, but it is nothing like this.

    Clarke's old burner was not a siphon nozzle style, it was drip only, no compressed air at all.
    Clarke's old burner did work well for him, but there were issues with it melting itself.

    Clarke has a new channel on y-tube.
    Look for "Windy Hill Foundry".
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKHArSvqZlJrqB-F-AXOjgA
    I think one of his videos shows his new furnace.

    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  12. Jason

    Jason Silver Banner Member

    500bucks sounds odd? You must have missed the clown on presstube asking if he should invest 20k to buy a vacuum setup to run lost wax. WhereTF do these people come from??:rolleyes:

    No I don't subscribe to clowns like that.
     
  13. oldironfarmer

    oldironfarmer Silver Banner Member

    Great post! But I would have to add don't pressurize a vessel which is not rated for at least 1-1/2 times your relief valve rating. Don't put a 30 psi relief valve on a sealed 5 gallon bucket.

    I don't have any idea how much fuel my drip burner is running but I do have a positive air damper and can adjust air down until combustion is just barely complete in the furnace (flames just licking out the top). I see bypass air gates trying to let excess air out but with that design you don't know for certain that you don't have excess air.
     
  14. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Why wouldn't dense castable refractory be the material of choice for the combustion chamber? Doesn't seem like steel will be around for very long living cherry red in air.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
    DavidF likes this.
  15. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    My Glumpy burner is built with dense castable, wrapped in ceramic fiber blanket. I built it with a 12" wide burn chamber, big enough to fit crucible inside of so I don't even need a furnace. :D

    Jeff
     
    oldironfarmer likes this.
  16. oldironfarmer

    oldironfarmer Silver Banner Member

    I had thought of making a castable burner but Jeff has it right. My only goal was to avoid flame impingement on the crucible.
     
  17. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    No denying what Clarke from Windy Hill can do with his ursutz setup. I've never tried melting cast iron and I'm definitely not knocking that type of arrangement; just couldn't resist having a little fun is all...

    I think I have enough left over refractory to build one, if it hasn't gone bad yet. I should probably try to use it up on something or other... No promises.

    Jeff
     
  18. PatJ

    PatJ Silver Banner Member

    LOL, exactly.
    Instead of a 2.5" x 24" tube that weighs 5 lbs, you have a 12" x 12" refractory box that will be running hot, and will degrade over time, and perhaps crack and leak hot gasses, and is very heavy and bulky to transport, and difficult to couple onto the side of the furnace.
    I just don't see running an Ursutz-style burner, but Clarke swears by his and uses it every day, so there is at least one believer out there (two I guess, Clarke and Glumpy).

    Keep in mind though that Clarke is one of these people that can touch lead and make it turn to gold.
    I swear I think Clarke could melt iron using birthday candles and a hair dryer.

    .
     
  19. joe yard

    joe yard Silver

    I wonder if a ursutz burner and natural gas would be a good combination? I have a 1 inch natural gas line available but at the very low residential pressure.
    Joe
     
  20. Jason

    Jason Silver Banner Member

    Uh hello?? Mizzou holds old beautifully to this task. With forced air, this thing doesn't even get that hot.


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