Larger Moya???

Discussion in 'Burners and their construction' started by HT1, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. oldironfarmer

    oldironfarmer Silver Banner Member

    Is your leaf blower designed so you can partially plug the inlet? Maybe with a piece of cardboard or cloth?

    How big is your pipe?
     
  2. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    Maybe, but I prefer the dimmer to kill much of the noise for at least part of the time... Burner tube is 2-1/4" exhaust tubing (fits my tuyeres perfectly), tee is a scrap of 2-1/2" size that happened to fit the leaf blower.

    Jeff
     
  3. oldironfarmer

    oldironfarmer Silver Banner Member

    You know of course if the burner tube swallows the flame on propane you need more air so may have to go to the leaf blower. Or you could put a nozzle on the end, maybe a 2-1/4x2 reducer.
     
  4. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    We'll see...
     
  5. HT1

    HT1 Silver


    I really appreciate any Info you get .
    with that Muffler Pipe you will instantly be able to tell if you are burning in the Burner tube


    Thanks In advance

    V/r HT1
     
    Tobho Mott likes this.
  6. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    Weird double post
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  7. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    It's the same kind of pipe I made both of my furnace tuyeres and my original Moya burner to fit, that's the only reason I'm using this type and size. Here's the piece that usually stays stuck into the side of the big furnace.

    20190624_155914-1040x780.jpg

    Here's what it looks like resting on the 1" hot face and on the outside of the furnace.

    20190624_155853-1040x780.jpg

    20190624_155902-1040x780.jpg

    I bolted a piece of the same pipe I made this tuyere out of onto my original Moya burner to center it in the tuyere at the correct depth when fully inserted into the tuyere as far as it can go.

    20190624_155940-1040x780.jpg

    20190624_160007-1040x780.jpg

    Note, the drip tube ends just barely before the 1" black pipe burner tube, should be barely visible here:

    PhotoPictureResizer_190624_162856882_crop_1572x945.jpg

    If I can get the leaf blower under control I was hoping to have it all fit together something like this.

    20190624_160456-1040x780.jpg

    But the drip tube is still too long at this point...

    20190624_160512-1040x780.jpg

    So I figured I'd just lop off the drip tube about here on the giant Moya right about here and hope for the best.

    20190624_160311-1040x780.jpg

    If I need to add any reducer at the end like Oldironfarmer was saying due to burning inside the tube, I guess I would add it to the tuyere piece rather than the burner tube itself? Well anyhow, I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.

    Hopefully I'll find time to give it a test run in the next few days sometime.

    Jeff
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  8. HT1

    HT1 Silver

    lets circle back to Blowers for a While I've of course been looking at the recommended Blower
    Ametek/Lamb 116765-13 Vacuum & Central Motor, NEW 110 volt 3 stage ALL METAL
    Which is rated at around 100CFM (depends on what literature you read)
    I'm really wanting to get to at LEAST 130 CFM 150 Prefered
    done lots of research ... favored source https://www.centralvacuummotor.com/lighthouse.htm

    I cannot find a 3 stage blower over 100CFM lots of 1 and 2 stage no 3 stage, what is the importance of 3 stage???

    V/r Ht1
     
  9. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    You don’t need 3-stage. The extra stages allow more vacuum and pressure to be developed but takes additional power. I preferred it for my use but You essentially just need max free air flow and a single stage blower is fine. If they have a data sheet, see what they flow with a 2” orifice. Your 2” plumbing will have a little pressure drop but close enough for rock and roll. I’ll look at the various models at you site tonight. You need to check out Amazon.....serious discounts.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  10. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    HT1, I looked over some of the vacuum motors available on that site. FWIW, when I search vacuum motors I get dozen sites like that on the first page. That one is kind of nice though because it has the basic performance specs front and center and even has more data available on a downloadable spreadsheet. But, the highest flow unit is marginal for what you want. Here's what I think you should be looking for and why.
    1. A tangential discharge: Only because they have a tubular discharge and make it easy to plumb. Many vacuum motors do not.
    2. A single stage unit. Why? Because more pressure/vacuum capability (multi-stage) takes more power and you want more flow.
    3. A convenient operating voltage. You want the most flow you can get on 115vac <15amps. This means you can power it on an ordinary household circuit. Good news is getting the most air watts at the same threshold is the design point for the vacuum cleaner designers too. If you were willing to power it with 220vac, you are in no way constrained on the flow you seek.
    So, I searched "tangential vacuum motor" on Amazon and got three pages of hits. The problem with Amazon is poor technical data availability and sometimes inaccurate data, but deals can be found. Here is an example of 1-3 above. They are purported to be in the 145-166cfm range for 2" orifice.

    https://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Mtr-B...acuum+motor&qid=1561553510&s=gateway&sr=8-130
    https://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Mtr-B...otor+1+stage&qid=1561555383&s=gateway&sr=8-15

    You'll also note these models have a 8.4" body diameter whereas the multistage units are 5.7". This is a design trade towards flow for the single stage unit. Now those prices are bit stupid

    If I search those part numbers on eBay ( "Ametek 122170-18" & "Ametek 122133-00) I get adds at 1/2 the price.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ametek-p-n...482824&hash=item2cbaee1f92:g:IIMAAOSwbYZXcI-e
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vacuum-Mot...997278?hash=item41d99fb75e:g:Xm4AAOSw3wVaa40I

    These are just examples. There are probably scads of similar models out there. You'll need to search around. If you called one of those suppliers and told them you were looking for a single stage 115vac vac motor with the highest free air flow around 150cfm they might fix you up.

    If you want most bang for the buck, those 3-stage units can be had for $50 and you could have 200cfm at higher delivery pressures for ~$100. But, you'd have to drag two drop cords from separate circuits or go visit my thread here on options to power them.

    http://forums.thehomefoundry.org/index.php?threads/wiring-a-pair-of-15-amp-vacuum-motors.788/

    I did learn two other things from the website you linked. They had 4 & 5 stage versions targeting High Volume Low Pressure HVLP paint gun applications. -Not important to you but anyone who wants higher pressure or vacuum at higher flows,could find this of value. The site said the motors needed to be clamp mounted through the ears to hold the stages together when used under (higher) pressure or the stages could separate. -Good to know.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
    oldironfarmer likes this.
  11. HT1

    HT1 Silver

  12. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    I like it. 120vac, all metal, universal motor, in your cfm range, practical current draw, reasonable price. You'll want to download the manual on the that tab at the link. Only thing I noticed was it doesn't have an inlet snout. Some of those supply store s will install one for a small fee. Not a big deal for you since you are using the discharge but not sure how you intend to control air flow......throttle the inlet or electrically.

    Those router speed controls work well for speed control. Besides controlling air flow, you can dial them back to reduce the start up torque which on these motors is quite high.......so high in fact if you just leave the motor laying on the ground and apply power, it will roll and flop around so best be planning to mount it to something with some mass or a broad base.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  13. oldironfarmer

    oldironfarmer Silver Banner Member

    Seems like we've seen that before.:D

    While you can use suction control, discharge control works just as well. Blocking the discharge unloads the motor like blocking the suction but I think fans are generally more stable with discharge blocked and they have higher pressure air to stir. I've seen more vibration in blocking suction.

    Like Kelly said I agree with a router speed control though I've never used one. I have a knife gate on my leaf blower discharge.
     
  14. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    Got a chance to do a couple test burns with the mega-moya. If it isn't just a Brute (not at all a sure thing to me, but I also think a Moya and a hot shot are basically the same thing too...), then I think it needs a better name than "a larger version of a Moya burner". Not sure what that ought to be though.

    At first the flame did want to burn inside the tube. Took me about 10 minutes to notice the red hot burner tube, not sure exactly when that started happening but I didn't think it started out that way. (Took my eyes off it for a minute or two while playing with my new railroad track anvil)

    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_082234090_crop_1203x690-902x517.jpg

    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_082350084_crop_905x864-678x647.jpg

    So, I tried what Andy (and Lionel's diagram for the Brute) suggested and added a reducer at the front end of the burner. Note that some people who run Brute burners built closer to Lio's diagram have found the reducer unnecessary (the diagram itself calls it "possibly optional"). Perhaps a slightly narrower tube (ie. 2" black pipe as spec'd in Lio's diagram, say, instead of my 2-1/4" thin walled stuff?) would not need one.

    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_082653364_crop_922x920-691x690.jpg

    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_082751863_crop_741x658.jpg

    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_082835824_crop_1588x703-1191x527.jpg

    Anyhow, in my case the reducer seemed to help. But there are still some small gaps around the outside edge of the reducer. I plan to plug those and run another test. These gaps may be the reason why the tip of my tuyere tube gets so hot, if flames are starting there where the gaps let the air and fuel bypass the reducer...

    Starting up:
    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_082936774_crop_954x754-715x565.jpg

    After a while:
    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_083014522_crop_1031x972-773x729.jpg

    Outside the furnace after 10 or 12 minutes running:
    PhotoPictureResizer_190704_083939636_crop_1114x972-835x729.jpg

    Like I said, I'll do another test burn once I get those little gaps plugged up. But I have a good feeling about this.

    Running off my 5 gallon shop vac for now. Maybe I'll revisit the leaf blower idea sometime soon, but for now I'll just try to tackle one thing at a time. I definitely get the feeling this new burner will work better for a faster preheat of the big furnace.

    Meanwhile, I hope this info helps. Only real numbers I've got for any of this is: my propane regulator only goes up to 10psi.

    Will link to the burner build and testing video here, once it's all been edited and uploaded. But don't worry, I'm not holding out on you guys, lol, I've already spoiled all the best parts with the pix above. :)

    Jeff
     
    HT1 likes this.
  15. HT1

    HT1 Silver

    I'll probably deal with the Inlet issue as part the mount pretty easily,
    I'm trying to think of a way to Box up the Whole thing as I expect it to be loud .
    but dont see a good way to do that without the possibility of restricting the cooling air
    it would be really nice for the fan to be quieter then the burner

    V/r HT1
    upload_2019-7-5_7-25-58.png


    upload_2019-7-5_7-25-58.png
     
  16. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    For my vacuum assisted casting rig I made a plenum with a hole so it could be lifted on and off. It just as a 1/4" wide gasket around the hole (not shown) and the vac motor sits on the plenum. It seals up tight but if you don't hold onto to it on start up, it'll flop off.

    Vac Plenum.JPG Vac Assist Rig.JPG

    Hard to do. You can make a simple baffle for the inlet that helps but by comparison you probably wont gain any more improvement than if you just block the inlet with your hand. Unfortunately, universal motors are notoriously noisy and you get a lot of bearing noise from the rpms they have to run to make the centrifugal fans run well. This issue has been worked hard by the vacuum cleaner manufacturers and they are still noisy. Think your pissin into the wind on that one.

    On the bright side, if you aren't running full tilt and have motor speed control, they do get quite a bit quieter at lower rpm.

    Best,
    Kelly
     
  17. Petee716

    Petee716 Silver Banner Member

    I'm running a Kirby vacuum cleaner for air. Granted it's not the same application because I'm using it only for combustion air in conjunction with a Delevan nozzle and probably not as powerful as the one you're looking at, but it's a noisy bastard. I run it inside the barn and pipe it through the wall with a 10' length of 2-1/4 PVC and then another 6' of flex shopvac hose to the burner. My compressed air, oil supply and router speed control wires come through the same wall from inside. I know there is some loss in the pipe, but not enough to matter. It's still quite audible when the furnace is running, but the furnace is definitely louder than the vacuum. Yes it's more stuff on the ground but it all comes to the furnace on the same path and I just don't walk over there. It's the "non-operator" side. Even if you place it in an open garage or under your carport it would still be better than having it out in the open.
    I use the same strategy at my printshop with several regenerative pumps, except I have permenant plumbing mounted to the ceiling. Placing the pump in a seldom occupied enclosed space makes for a much more safe and productive environment and saves on PPE.

    Pete
     
  18. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Silver Banner Member

    The local blacksmith has the shop vac blower(s) for his coal forges boxed up to reduce the noise. I'll be going back for a day sometime this summer for a class and will try to get a pic of how that's set up, if I can.

    Jeff
     
  19. HT1

    HT1 Silver

    I hate to Bust bubbles but Vacuums can be all but silent . and it was done, and they kept getting returned because no one believed they worked well... same as early canister vacuums with the clear dust bin, little old ladies returned them and got baggers because all that dust repulsed and embarrassed them... " My home is not that dirty!"

    BUT I cannot make air or Bearing noise go away , and I cannot provide motor cooling air while the entire thing is in an Box But I will see what I can Do
     
  20. HT1, I'm coming in a bit late on this discussion but I did read through the earlier comments. It's possible to build a fast propane furnace that will melt an A20 of bronze in around 20 minutes and 15 minutes when hot: there is no gas nozzle: it's just half inch copper water pipe going straight into the air tube which would be about 2" diameter and similar to Tobho's setup (I can go take measurements if you like). The furnace used is the first drawing but has the burner from the reverbatory furnace in the second drawing, it's a steel pipe with a gentle 90 degree bend with a steel tube welded in to accept the 1/2" copper propane tube. It's very fuel hungry and is running all day off a gas cylinder similar to the one on the right in the photo to reduce the cylinder freezing. The gas regulator is used for pottery kilns.

    Edit: I spoke to Peter today: he says the 210Kg / 460 lbs bottle is a special higher flow type rather than standard issue.

    So if you have something roughly like this:
    furnace2.jpg

    With the burner used in this:
    furnace3.jpg

    Running off one of these cylinders:
    propane tank.jpg

    With a one Hp blower like this:
    Furnace blower.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019

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