Multi-use Ribbon Burner questions

I've been doing a bunch of research on forges and burners lately. Thanks to Forged in Fire, the wife and I are wanting to do some blacksmithing to start out.

I was pondering about making a ribbon burner for a forge and wondered if anyone here has used a ribbon burner for melts.

My first thoughts are, unless it's smaller than the crucible, it's a waste of gas as well as introducing fuel into the molten Aluminum (if that's even a concern/thing).

Now, writing this, I am wondering about making multiple smaller burners for the forge that can be independently supplied. So if you're doing a railroad spike you need one burner, a set of tongs might need two burners. Then, the same burners could be turned the other way into the furnace to bathe a crucible with melty goodness.

Tell me I'm insane, and I'll try to post pics when I'm done. Need to get some Greencast now.

I just need y'all to bounce ideas back. Thanks!

 

The two burner vevor furnace that I have can technically be laid on it's side and used as a forge. I haven't done that as a have a different 2 burner vevor forge as well. I know these things are Chinese and probably won't last forever, but for starting out I think they are a fine option. That way you can get to beating on iron instead of thinking about burners.

If your interested in blacksmithing check out black bear forge on you tube.

 

The last 2 pieces I wanted to 'smith' were 8 x 6" [20 x 15cm] and would not make it into my 6kg furnace so I had to heat them with the cutting torch. The torch is very fast but is also consuming bottled O2 along with fuel gas (propane in both cases). My 6kg furnace is not explicitly designed to be a forge, burner is tangential and close to the bottom and the handles don't support it laid on its side.

PS I just 'googled' ribbon burner and watched some YouTube and have a better idea what you are making.

 

One person on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@TyrellKnifeworks made a top-fed ribbon burner forge and then made a side-fed semi-tangential ribbon burner forge as the first one was too small and the direct heat was cooking the top of the billets. All of the forges I have seen like these have a significant floor, shelf outside the door, and stand to make them user-friendly. If I had a dual-purpose one like @Mburtis , I would for sure try it as a forge...but if I were to purpose build or plan on doing forge work with company, I'd want separate devices: a good furnace and a good forge.

PS I forgot to say thanks for giving me a whole 'nother rabbit hole to go down: forges, anvils, 2x72 belt sanders...

PPS @Rob Hall I think it's awesome that you and yours want to do some metalworking together!

 

I built my first forge out of a cast iron sink when I was maybe 12 years old. I recently got back into it and am having a lot of fun learning it again. Just so useful of a skill, just like casting.

Like I mentioned black bear forge is excellent, as is Tabjorn or something like that.

 

@Mburtis The rub is that I already have a forge, coal, anvil, tongs, hammer...but they are located a couple hour's drive away.

But a person can dream and scheme...I saw a variant that did not use a hole saw for the 2" pipe nipple or a separate diffuse baffle.

@Rob Hall how long are you thinking with the main burner tube

 

Yeah Tops, that's the design I've found that shouldn't be hard to make.

I am thinking of starting with a couple 6" long in the "FORGE MODE" with the ability to turn one off if needed for small forging and in the "FURNACE MODE" when I go to aluminum melt. Hopefully the attached are readable.


I have a (cheapish, $40) blower coming from Amazon that "SHOULD" push air through automotive exhaust piping about 2" or so. I did a little area conversion to make sure I had enough output hole area so not to cause back pressure in the tube. I am hoping I don't have to buy a really huge blower, like y'all talking about the ones that blow up the bounce houses....I'll just go back to my thrift store hair dryers, which I think do an amazing job with the added bonus of heating the air which I think helps the propane (The few times I have used them)


I will try to snap pics as I go.

 

I think we would all love to see pictures. Weren't we supposed to say you're crazy to unlock that feature?

Are you going to have separate propane and blowers for each leg or a common system that feed both with a means to isolate burner #2 from air and fuel when not bring used?

For my 2-something inch system on my current project, I struck out finding compatible sized adapters at the auto supply...but met a fabricator that same day at that same store who cut and bent 2 pipes and custom fitted the 4 ends to adapt to my well-meaning but somewhat mis-matched menagerie of components (blower-pipe-valve-pipe-burner).

 

Yeah, I have been perusing your furnace build very slowly, gleaning insight with every post. Is there any air leakage from around that flat-gate? That's what I was thinking to use for shutting off the unused side.
I notice little fiddly bits, like your turkey burner in the above photo is the exact same as the one I used before now to melt with.

I am still waffling on the shape of the furnace, top exit, top lift-off, etc. I am going over a LOT of builds on here as well as blacksmithing sites, and basically hating that you guys do great work. ;-)

I have not designed the secondary burner part yet. I thought about having the propane enter upstream of the "Y"/split, and just shut off the one I don't want, but not sure if that could lead to propane leaks on that side.

If propane injects AFTER the "Y"/split, I need a second line off the propane, another stopcock, another connector, but it'll be safer (and I'm whining about first world problems here when the dudes in pakistan are pouring iron wearing grass footwear, or no footwear at all)

I went to my local Do-It-Center and got some stove pipe which it turns out is 3" so I'll be returning that, unless I use it to make something nice out of.

I just got my BLOWER <hopefully thats a link last night and mic'd it out. OD of about 1.7-2.0 " and ID of about 1.6ish" I am impressed with the amount of air it will move, much more than a hair dryer.
I have a bit of car exhaust tubing I measured that will probably be what I use. I like the idea that the car exhaust is meant to keep gases IN, like maybe propane....Whereas I think the stove pipe might be a bad choice with how much air could seep from the joints.

 

The slide gate I have is not air/gas tight, I can see daylight through the slide and it leaks air on the blower side when closed and in use.
Our coal forge has a stovepipe/HVAC sheet metal style pipe between the blower and tuyere and a pivoting damper (like a wood stove flue), also not tight, but there is not a combustible mix in that pipe. It seems more 'period correct' than efficient.

 

The Homely Despot is gonna lower my credit if I don't buy something on credit, so Golly Jeepers whatever shall I do but make a purchase of burner-building supplies....

That kinda settles the conundrum of making multiple propane connections. Rob, just do it!!! Not like these will ever go to waste even if I have to build completely separate units for foundry and forge.

I'm just trying to cheapskate stuff when I don't really need to.

(Thanks to TOPS for this suggestion, and for a great build thread) I also plan to go to our local muffler shop and maybe have them custom make some fittings for me.

 

The guy who bent and flared the pipes was very particular, working in small increments to get the fits 'just right'. This was beneficial in dealing with the castings for the gate and the blower which were not 100% in line with auto store pipe connections.

 

Bought three 55gal drums to turn into other projects (muller, deer hide soaking/tanning vessels, etc)
Cut the top and bottom off one so the "node" was attached to the bottme/lid parts to hopefully strengthen those sections for the muller.
That left a ring of awesome 1mm thick sheet steel.....Wonder what I can do with that?????

RIBBON BURNER!


Hole Template and the bottom drilled


So, the holes in the refractory are made in my own invention style. Most folks use crayons, but I felt like my engineering style needed to come out of kindergarden.
The holes drilled in the bottom accept 1/4" dowel rods.

Those dowel rods support some latex tubing.


The refractory gets put in the form, around the latex tubing. Tamped and 'vibrated' as well as smacked on the bench to hopefully drive the refractory all the way in/between. Not sure it made it all the way the the bottom form.

I made a special tool with holes larger than the latex tubing to help mash the refractory down.

Add the hood (I didn't snap a pic of the baffle I welded in there)


HOPEFULLY, when I remove the sides and slide out the bottom, the 1/4" dowels will stay with the bottom (they are not glued)
Then pull the latex out leaving the holes.

I did a bad thing and pulled one of the sides off too soon (next day) and some of the refractory came with it. Oh well, haste makes waste. I'm going to let it cure for a couple more days and update on the results.

 

Well shoot, I didn't snap a pic, but I did pull the walls off the refractory last night. About Half of the refractory had hardened, but the 'wetter' parts didn't fall apart and I was able to get a chisel in between the rows and force it all together.

I'm only half expecting this to come out right. First try with a whole new thing.

There was still enough of the refractory stuck to the bottom plate that it wouldn't come completely free.

Just for reference, I smeared clear latex caulk on the inside of the forms and it kinda helped release. Might put some wd40 or mineral oil on the next one to see if it releases easier.

I am excited to try this out and will obviously keep my adoring audience updated. ;-)

 

Better than expected. I think my baffle plate is letting too much straight through the center holes, so while the outer holes have a nice blue flame, the inner section is still spitting yellow-ish.

Still ain't even mad! First try was at least workable. It's FUGLY, but it just might work.

 

Are you going to need graduated holes?
Remember the old side-saddle water heaters? I've been holding on to this one for years thinking it would be useful as a forge burner.
These holes are a lot smaller than yours.

 

That looks natural gas or naturally aspirated to me. Mine has a blower, and truthfully I need more/larger holes to not choke the airflow. I honestly think I could (and will) make another about 8 inches long, I like the 3 inch width but the 5 inch length just might not be enough.
I have a blower that I think is actually pushing too much air through the 1inch black iron pipe.
Need to get pics of it running in the dark so I can see the whole flame front.

Another thing I'm going to try is to tune the holes, block them with refractory until they are all equal flamewise.

When I get time, I'm going to make another of these 5Inch made, since I already have the form setup.

I will also be making the forge body for multiple burners. My plan is to use the entire length of a 55 gal drum and make an oval form, flat bottom forge. Then only use the number of burners needed for the length of the project.

The ribbon burner is primarily for use in knife/blacksmithing kinda work.

 

Not using a really-real forge, just some firebricks, I hit 1200F