Satanite vs rigidizer?

Discussion in 'Furnaces and their construction' started by Tobho Mott, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Thinking about whipping up a smaller more portable furnace I can take on the road.

    Anyone know if this stuff might be roughly equivalent to Satanite in terms of being able to protect the ceramic fiber blanket from my burner? I know they will both keep fibers from going airborne, but that is not my only concern. Can't seem to find Satanite in Canada, but this stuff I can get within a 5 minute walk from work...

    I emailed a local blacksmith (and seal coal vendor) and asked him if he knows where to get satanite, as well as the pottery supply shop around the corner that only carries the rigidizer, but I haven't heard back from him yet...

    Thanks in advance for any insight.

  2. Al2O3

    Al2O3 Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Most of the rigidizers are colloidal silica and in making my low mass furnace I can tell you wool will drink the stuff like mad if applied with a brush. Better sprayed if you just want to stabilize the outer layer of fiber. Satanite is a Harbison Walker Product and considered a mortar. It comes in powdered form so you can add water and mix to the desired consistency. Here's the link Bonz posted to the MSDS. It may take a while to load and then scroll way down to Satanite.

    I was surprised to see the long list of ingredients. I take it the usual source for small qty is prohibitive for shipment to Canada?

    I've used that Vesuvius Super 3000 on IFB shown in your link. It is premixed high alumina mortar. It's a mortar and can be thinned and similarly applied. Never used it on Wool though.

  3. PatJ

    PatJ Silver

    There is no data on the temperature rating of the stuff, but if you are going to use propane, I would guess that it would work ok.
    If you plan to use an oil burner, you may want to consider a smaller furnace made of vertical hard fire bricks.

    I have tried rigidizing some ceramic blanket with limited success.
    The best success I have had is thinning the material, and spraying it on (I used a cheap sandblaster as a sprayer).
    The trick is to not use too much pressure, else the air stream damages the ceramic blanket during spraying.

    I think ITC recommends 2 parts ITC to 1 part water (check me on that), and so perhaps a similar mix with the proposed stuff you found (check me on that too).

    The spraying of thinned material seems to allow it to soak into the blanket a lot more, and thus not crack/peel off as a heavy coat of thicker material will do.

    Also, melterskelter has a lot of experience with coating ceramic blanket (I seem to recall that anyway), so it is probably worth asking him for tips and tricks.

  4. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Thanks guys. I'm waiting to hear back from hightemptools to see if they will ship here - I know budget casting won't.

    Would like to use Satanite if I can get it, since others like Fishbonzwv have had such great results with it...

    Time is also a factor; if I build this thing, it'll be for a project that will take place away from home in just a couple weeks. And the Black Dread definitely isn't gonna fit in the back of my minivan without putting up a fight!

    I've also asked my seal coal guy (a local, Josh Van Noy of Van's Blacksmithing) if he's used anything that's roughly equivalent. He is a coal forge guy, but I know some of those guys use satanite for knife making, and he does offer a couple of knife classes...

    I'll make sure and keep this thread updated as I learn more.

  5. FishbonzWV

    FishbonzWV Silver Banner Member

    I've never used or seen rigidizer but Satanite does create a hot face.
    How big of a portable are you planning? If it's propane tank size you could get by with 5 pounds.
    See if Hightemp will pack it in a Flat Rate Priority Padded Envelope. They normally ship flat rate boxes and can only fit 2 pounds in the small box and the next size box is double, cost wise. The padded envelope is the same cost as the small box but it holds more.
    Postage is going to be in $25 US range to the great white north.
  6. Rigidizer, in petroleum industry furnaces, is only for keeping brittle fibers from becoming airborne, never used for a flame impingement location.

    To apply it we used cheap pump up garden sprayers. They work great, no air, just a heavy mist of the mixture. If you want to apply rigidizer to exposed edges of wool away from the hot face try a garden sprayer.
  7. Melterskelter

    Melterskelter Gold Banner Member

    Likely as a resident Our Good Neighbor to the North you know more about this than I do. But, I know a lot of Canucks just N of me use shipping Svc’s located in the US to receive mailed good for them and then drive across the border to pick it up at significant time and cost savings...

    That might be a way to quickly get some Satanite quickly. I see you are about 20 miles from the US.

    At Bonz recommendation, I did use it as a hot face on my very low mass furnace and found it does work well on the side walls covering 2” of high temp (2600f) wool. The floor needed a thin coat (1/2”) of dense refractory due to drips of iron eroding the Satanite/wool. For the lid, I used just wool and Satanite with a thin metal shell. That is working well, though I have had to recoat some flaked off areas after use. It SEEMS like applying Satanite follows by immediate firing results in better adhesion to the lid than does application followed by 2 days drying and then firing.

    Satanite applied to steel surfaces seems to be protective in that application as well.

    I’d be happy to chat about my experiences so far should that be helpful to you. You probably noticed the liberal use of “seems” above as I am just gradually learning the parameters of its use.


    Added: I agree with the comment that rigidizer does not do much to improve refractoriness of wool. Satanite is very protective.
  8. Tobho Mott

    Tobho Mott Administrator Staff Member Banner Member

    Ok, looks like the rigidizer isn't what I need then. Good ideas. Thanks again guys.

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