Eagle Statue - Zapins

Discussion in 'Lost wax casting' started by Zapins, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Haha yeah Remet has been really good with giving me help and instructions over the years. Even sent me msds files with all the chemicals/supplies I bought from them.
     
  2. Artopsy

    Artopsy Copper

    Ok, home now and found the book. Sorry i cant be bothered to transcribe the section on drying ceramic shell so ive attached some images from 'methods for modern sculptors' by ronald d young and robert a fennell. Sorry for the quality but if you squint you can make out most of it im sure. I will reupload them tomorrow in the daylight. Ipad doesnt like artificial light.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Ransom and Randolph has pretty good guidance on their website for their shell.... Most critical of all is constant temperature and completely dry before applying additional layers of shell. If not, you lock in the moisture and could get a nice surprise during dewax. I never rush shell coats, no reason to. According to R&R, you get more bang from your buck by airflow and not humidity reduction.
     
  4. Artopsy

    Artopsy Copper

    Yep, pretty much what ron young says. Ive swapped the images of the book in post 122 but its raining so they are still a bit blurry.
    I will check out the R&R website in a bit, thanks.
     
  5. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Red97 likes this.
  6. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Looking head on at the feet... The one on the right looks perfect. I think I see what you are talking about. To me, the toes on the left foot look too straight. Anyway to shave the top of the log down and lower the foot so it can curl more around the branch? If ya did nothing, I think it still looks great. Who's to say he was leaning a little to one side raising some weight off that one foot?
     
  7. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Hey Zap... Are you planning on pinning the outside shell through the wax to the inside shell????? Also known as chaplets?
     
  8. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    FYI I fixed the claw a bit. Looks better. Maybe not perfect but not so weird.

    Nope. Just going to have the outer shell flow in over the lip and meet the inner shell.

    I had to buy a few parts so I can make some smaller diameter sprues. I'm thinking one large feed sprue going down the back to the base of the wood and many small feeding sprues coming off it to the back wing feathers. Maybe a big direct sprue to the top of the head too.

    Not sure if combining a J sprue and a direct feed is a good idea since the metal would then have to meet in the middle somewhere and may cause turbulence.

    The other thing I'm concerned about is the main J sprue is a 2 foot drop. Letting the metal fall 2 feet through a spout may generate a fair amount of force/pressure/turbulence. I wonder if the shell can handle that, or if I should tilt the sprue slightly so the metal flows down the wall rather than falls to the bottom.
     
  9. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Thanks man... I was curious if you thought chaplets were necessary. I'm thinking about my upcoming latest project. It will be the first hollow bronze object I've cast similar to your chicken. Fritz sent me a pair of foxes. I'll run a video of the work. Should be pretty straight forward and quick if I can find time to get on it... I him do 90% of the wax work.
     
  10. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Alright folks what do you think of the spruing? I'm doing it the normal J sprue style with no direct feeds. The total weight of the wax is about 2300 grams * 8.5 * 2.205 = 43 lbs of bronze. My crucible has 51 lbs of capacity so I've got roughly 8 lbs of bronze to spare as it is now.

    I find myself wondering how well the claws will cast.

    [​IMG]Sprued Eagle by Zapins, on Flickr
     
  11. Jason

    Jason Gold

    My gut says no.... We have to wait for my brain.... (artopsy) to see it. :D:p

    Something about the distance from the main sprue ALL the way around the world to the far side of the opening on the chest.... I'd do the bird separate from the log. (You know someone just dropped a bunch of cash on a tig welder??!) Speaking of... If I didnt know that log was wax, I'd swear it was sitting on wood from the photos.;) My idea was put the bird on his back and run a fat sprue in that hole and vent off the edge of the hole back up to the cup.

    What is the size of that main long sprue? 1/2" ??? You know I'm new at this stuff too and always asking for advice is cheap insurance. My advice is probably worthless, but I know how many hours you have invested in this. I just want to see it work right the first time.

    If you do stay with the present setup, I HIGHLY recommend you either drill that shell or install some wax vents all over the the entire front of this thing. I tend to look at a spruing job and the first thing I think of is how the hell will the wax get out of dodge???? With your present setup and this thing inverted, I believe you will blow the shell apart like a nuclear bomb! If ya cant get the wax out smoothly, you'll never get the bronze in to where it needs to go. J in France will correct me if I'm wrong and we will both be smarter for it brother!
     
  12. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    The main sprue is a bit over 1" thick. The smaller sprues are between 1/2 and 3/4"

    I think the shell might cast ok the way it is sprued but I think you are right about the burnout. The wax would have to flow upwards and out the sprues to exit the pouring cone as it is now.

    I may have to add that main sprue on its forehead to help the burn out and add some holes as you mentioned. I can always patch them just before pouring.

    Tig welding the wood onto the feet would be difficult. The spaces where the bird clears the wood are very small and getting the tip of the tig welder or oxy acetelye torch in there at the right angle would be difficult. Not to mention I'd have to grind down the metal afterwards and make it look like feathers which would also be difficult. Better if I can avoid welding in that area.

    Spruing through the chest is an good idea and I may make a 2nd copy to see if that works better. But there are a couple issues I see with that. One is the pouring cone would have to come out of the piece a significant ways which would make the final piece too wide and too tall to get into my burn out furnace (I may still have this issue the way mine is now though). Another is some of the feathers and claws may not cast if it lies on its back since they would curve upwards towards the pouring cone and there are too many details on those pieces to easily vent. Maybe if the sprues went to the lip of the stomach opening instead of all the way inside that would work better?
     
  13. Jason

    Jason Gold

    Photos are so deceiving. I would have never thought that main sprue was an inch.
    No doubt about it, this bird is a tough one to sprue. What if you flippd this current setup upside down? That means stick the cup on the bottom where the log is. You wouldn't be able to pour him sitting upright. But he could be supported by a steel rack of placed in a bucket of kaowool like you've seen me do? Just tossing some ideas out there...

    That claw looks good now, btw!
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
  14. Jason

    Jason Gold

  15. Artopsy

    Artopsy Copper

    I hate to say it but i find myself agreeing with Jason..... (Only joking Jason). But he is right, you are likely to have a few issues with your current set up. The wood log still looks like it will cast solid (maybe i just cant see any opening for the shell to enter) and this will act as a huge sink for the bronze. Unless you have an equal sized feeder to keep it topped up it will shrink and try to get metal from the bird. If the bird is solid when this happens (likely as it is thinner) it will distort the cooled metal and rip the legs off. If you do manage to keep the bird liquid longer than the wood through selective heating/cooling of the mould, it will suck the liquid out of the bird as the wood cools.

    Neither of these is an optimum outcome unless you wanna practice your creative tig welding.

    If you really have to cast these together i would do as J-J-Jason (sorry, but its hard to say his name when hes right a few times in one post!) i would be pouring from bottom to top, using the wood section as near the pour cup as possible.

    As you already noticed zapins, he's r-r-right about the wax escapement on burnout as well. Damn it!

    The easiest fix for the current set up (if you really dont want to separate the bird from the wood for casting) is to cut the pour cup off near the head and stick it to the other end near the wood. Add a fat feeder from cup to wood so the bronze will cool from head to tail with the cup being the last thing to solidify.
    Also add a small runner from the tip of the beak to the chest (and any feathers that point up when pouring) so no air pockets.
    And finally, the claws will cast fine. Just make sure theres no gaps between the claw and the wood that will get slurry in. This will be a pain to remove when in bronze or worst case it could break off and cause inclusion flaws (usually in the worse place possible!).
     
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  16. Jason

    Jason Gold

    LMAO... There is medication for that stuttering problem you seem to have tonight. But it looks like I might be learning this stuff after all!

    That bird looks like a royal PITA to sprue. I don't envy Zap at this point. I will once he get's it poured right!

    Someone commented in one of my videos there is some acid you can spray on bronze and it dissolves the shell. I haven't tried it yet as I use the bead blaster and the shell is gone with no effort. I breathe enough harmful stuff without looking for more trouble.:eek:
     
  17. Artopsy

    Artopsy Copper

    Jason, ive heard there are acids that break down ceramic and leave the bronze but like you i have enough hazards around without adding any unnecessary ones to the mix.
    Spruing can be a time consuming PITA but the trick is to do this bit well and save yourself having to do 10 times more work on the clean up afterwards.
    As it is sprued it will fill fine if the metal and mould are nice n hot. The trick is to keep all the metal in the right place as it cools. This requires the thin bits to solidify first and the thicker bits to firm up later while being fed liquid to prevent the shrinkage. This will be more likely to happen with the pour cup on the end near the 'wood'. Especially if you then cover the pour cup and 'wood' section with kaowool after the pour to keep them bits hot.

    It will cast fine, the pain comes with the clean up on complicated pieces like this. This is why it costs so much getting big stuff cast in a pro foundry.

    Zapins, you have done an incredible job with this. Im very impressed that you have created this sculpture, got it this far and you are an amateur. I have not chosen the word 'amateur' for its usual meaning (without being paid for, without formal training) although i supect this is the case, but for the words original french meaning which is 'lover of'.
    The time and effort taken to make this piece what it will become will make it a true labour of love and work of art. Well done.
    J
     
  18. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Fine fine fine! You guys convinced me.

    I'll cast the legs and the wood separate from the body separate from the stomach plate. That will simplify a lot and ensure I get a good final casting. I'll just have to figure out how to weld it back together later on. The tight spaces are going to suck to weld but perhaps I don't have to weld completely around the back side of the legs where I can't see/get the torch. I suppose a small gap wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Plus I can always try out my smaller carbide burs and carve the wax to look like feathers.

    Thanks Art, I've gotten a lot quicker and more comfortable with the various wax tools needed to make more detailed sculptures over the last 7 or so years of casting. Finally feel like I'm at a point where I can make whatever I want with a fair degree of reliability. The multi part rubber mold making was a steep learning curve too & I need to find an alternative for the fiberglass/resin, that stuff was a terrible experience from start to finish.

    I'm grateful there are others who do the same hobby and can help encourage & guide. This would have been basically impossible without you all :)
     
  19. Jason

    Jason Gold

    lol... After you have it in metal... park the bird on top of the log and drill it, tap it, screw it tight with bolts and blow some bronze over the evidence. done.
     
  20. Zapins

    Zapins Gold

    Problem is the feet have to fit it tightly, so they need to be cast with the log. I'll just chop his knees off and weld them later
     

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